“First of all, is there any other way that we can communicate? Other than this site?”

I can’t think of any. I would actually be worried about using emails. You probably will deny that many of my friends have been called in by the intelligence agency for their email and or facebook activities. But they have. I use a proxy to comment on this site, even though it’s not blocked.

You know, we’re too random anonymous people talking this out and we never seem to come to an agreement about anything. We cherry-pick each other’s comments and continue to take it to a million different directions that someone who might actually be crazy enough to read all this might wonder what the heck is it that we’re trying to say! The two of us can’t find much of a common ground, so I can’t imagine the actual players being ever able to find a common ground! To put it blatantly, we’re fucked!

On to the “simplified” list!

1. Majority are poor in that they are after bread and butter as you say. But I don’t see how that translates into votes for Ahmadinejad. You can’t compare a campaign promise Mousavi made to the urban population with something Ahmadinejad may have done prior to the elections to win votes (like many of his projects that were for show, like his railway to nowhere; empty promises to nothing!). If you remember correctly Ahmadinejad in his first run for presidency also said that his government will not bother young people. In his now infamous promise to not have moral police to worry about what young people wear or do. So he too must have cared about the votes of the urban middle-class who want more social freedoms. And on the run up to last year’s elections, the moral police had cleared off the streets. Young people from North to South of Tehran were jamming music and dancing in the streets until 4 in the morning and no one said a thing. If AN really didn’t think these people count he would not have given this short lived freedom to them. But I think they didn’t think there would be so much support for Mousavi. They were taken aback. I think they planned the whole rigging of the elections in less than a week. It was a hurried coup and many questions are still left unanswered for the public in regards to the elections.

You continue to argue that Ahmadinejad must have had 63% of the vote simply because majority are poor and they see in him a champion of the poor. You claim that majority don’t care about social freedoms or cultural issues. I disagree. If that was the case Khatami would not have been voted into power twice much to the shock of Khamenei who wasn’t expecting it. And the only reason AN came INTO power the first time is that the votes of the reformers were split and he ended up against someone who people hated: Rafsanjani. Majority of the actual votes on the first round voted for reform candidates. Which is why so odd that after 4 years of failed policies and weakened living conditions, he would suddenly get 24 million votes out of nowhere. I smell foul play a mile away. As though previous voting trends were non-existant. Even though the population as a whole was now younger and less traditional. Even though Mousavi was able to energize those who got tired of Khatami because he didn’t do enough reform. I won’t even get into voter irregularities and fraudulant activities or how text messages were cut off, etc. Just based on voting trends alone I would question the outcome. But what do you care about voting trends, right?!

2. “I am very much against people being arrested expressing their opinion, and I don’t deny that in Iran there a lot of people who have been arrested because of doing so. HOWEVER, majority of the “reformists” who were arrested in the aftermath of the election, were not arrested because of expressing their opinion, had it been that, they would have been arrested BEFORE the election. They were arrested because they were leading an attempt to annul an election that they had clearly lost and that they were strongly suspected of being in liaison with the foreign intelligence organizations.”

Many were arrested THE NIGHT of the elections. Before people took to the streets. What exactly was their crime?! And if they are “suspected” of being in liaison with the foreign intelligence orgs, where is the god damn proof? Why present the public with so many conflicting charges, reports and scenarios? If they are really really really sure of there being no fraud, why have show trials? Why not have actual trials where they PRESENT EVIDENCE and the defendants get the chance to defend themseleves and the public opinion forms based on the evidence they presented. Talking to foreign reporters does not mean you’re a foreign spy! Why have forced confessions that increase people’s distrust? If on that first week they let people protest the outcome peacefully (as they were doing), and then on state TV they invited Mousavi to come on a live show and present his case, and then they presented THEIR case, none of this would have happened. All these lives would have been saved if the battle took place in the TV studio in front of live cameras. And if that battle had a fair judge (and not the biased Guardian council) people would have respected the outcome. Whether Mousavi won or Ahmadinejad or if they were taken to the second round.

But Mousavi hasn’t been on TV since the last time he signed off after his last debate. People WOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS IF THEY FELT THAT THERE WAS A TRANSPARENT PROCESS BY WHICH BOTH SIDES ARE PRESENTING THEIR CASE ON NATIONAL TV. The fact that they started beating people, arresting them, jailing them, killing them AND not letting them present their case made people even more suspicious of the voter fraud. None of the charges against Mousavi and his supporters have stuck. And as far as public opinion goes no one believes anything the government says anymore.

Let’s assume that Mousavi “clearly lost” as you claim. Is this how a confident winner tries to reach to the sore losers? I think not.

3. “The “reformist” newspapers and media hand in hand with the WORST of corporate media lie about the world and Iranian events. Unfortunately the green youth, is heavily exposed to this type of news (ie. lies) and swallows them like an oyster. They have a completely wrong picture of the reality about the wolrd events and history, from the creation of Israel, to the role of the West in our current miseries. These attempts to wash away the Wests sins is mainly to integrate Iran into the global capitalist market and open our markets and our labour force (and raw materials) into the forein capital.”

Do you really want to go on the record as having said that the likes of Fars News, IRNA and Kayhan are legit sources of news? Do you really want to side with Basijis and THEIR understanding of reality and world events? Do you really think Kayhan does not lie? If you do, let me know and we’ll end this dialogue right away.

Not sure how this is related to MY number 3: “We both agree the regime crackdown was brutal and stupid. You believe those killed were victims who were deceived and used as tools by their leaders. I believe they WERE the leaders who lead the movement. Mouasvi followed them and not them Mousavi. I doubt Mousavi imagined one day becoming the leader of a movement that calls for an “Iranian Republic!” ”

4. “The day Iranians have a percapita income of $40,000/year, will be the day you will see similar rights for foreign refugees in Iran. And the fact that we have a very low income is a result of “imperialism” not because they have a more “efficient system”.”

how do you think we can reach the level of having even half $40,000/year per capita? Do you even think it’s possible? If capitalism is bad, what alternative is there? The system of the Islamic republic clearly hasn’t paid off either. Communism didn’t work either. What alternatives are there? With all your talk that Ahmadinejad has made us more powerful (which I will later argue he hasn’t), you think we have a low income because of “imperialism” and not mismanagement of the country’s resources and corruption at the top? For how many more decades will you put the blame on imperialism? When will you admit that corruption at home is the cause of much of our troubles?

“I am not basing my whole arguement on a specific lobby. I am talking about “lobbies” in general and the fact that they are the extension of corporations and their interests.”

You justify the position of the SL by saying he’s the symbol of monetary interests and yet you criticize lobbies. Lobbies and corporations and special interest groups are all made up of a network of people who live in very societies they serve. I am not saying they always have the best interest of the majority in mind, but they are part of a system that seems to be functioning fine for a healthy majority. I take them over the position of a SL who is after the interest of his small circle of friends with utter disregard for the majority any day.

“By the way Iran will NEVER have the position of Israel. Comparing Iran to Israel (and covetting their position) is like comparing a ship in Shepperd’s herd to the guard dog. The guard dog is to keep the sheep in line, it is not be “eaten”. Sheep on the other hand is the “food”. Sheep will never become the “guard dog”!”

That may be the case. But at least Iranian-Americans will have a voice and a debate might take place. For as long as the Iranian-American lobby is not in line with the government of Iran we can’t expect any real change in their level of influence.

“You mean the “converted” son of a Christian immigrant I guess? Because Obama is a convert (from Islam to Christianity). By the way there are claims that Ahmadinejad has a Jewish background. I don’t believe in that claim, and in fact I think it is a testament to the racist nature of the “reformists” and how they lack any sort of principle and that they use anything against their opponents if they think that it will hurt him. But I have no doubt that if a Christian or a Jew converts to Islam he will have no problem in getting promoted in the structure of IR’s elite.”

Didn’t think you’d be a “birther” on the same team as the neo-cons! But let’s not make this about Obama. The whole Jewish claim I didn’t buy into and I don’t think it started with the reformists and nowhere did it ever make it to the GM slogans and or public opinion. If anything much of the hatred towards Ahmadinejad is his fanatic Islamic beliefs. The fact that he always starts speaking after citing an Arabic verse from the Quran – never a Persian poem. He’s influenced too much by the Arabs, not the Jews. Plus, suppose the Greens started that rumor. Is it really any worse than what the hardliners are doing by calling Mousavi and Karoubi “leaders of sedition” and “enemies of God?!”

“In fact if you look at immigrants who have progressed in USA, they all have been integrated to the US system, and the moment that they speak out against the system and try to swim against the flow they are “demotede”/marginalized. Look at what happened to Oppenheimer and you will see what I mean. Even the fact that a lot of people with muslim backgrounds have to hide or change their names, is a testimony to what I say.”

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US (unfortunately). There is a 7 story mosque being built a few blocks from the World Trade Center site in NY. Muslim groups may face scrunity from the government, but they won’t be prosecuted. If citizens they will have the right to defend themselves. They have all rights Christians have. Compare that to how minority religious groups are treated in Iran. How the Bahais, the Jews and the Christians are second-class citizens. The US system may be flawed but let’s save our critique of it for a different talk on the US. For now we’re talking about Iran. So the question isn’t what are they doing in the US, the question is how are they treating religious minorities in Iran and i think not very well… And personally I don’t see anything wrong with assimilation. One reason why Iranians have done better than other immigrants is their ability to better assimilate and learn the ways. They have taken advantage of what America for example offers them and done well for themselves.

“I would say we deserved Mosaddegh enough to have him as our democratically elected prime minister.
So now you think that we actually deserved the 1953 coup? Well my friend, can you now blame the IR to think that you guys are the agents of the foreign countries?!?!? If you can brazenly claim that we “deserved” 1953 coup then it is very likely that you support a velvet coup TODAY, just as all green theoreticians do (Ganji, Zibakalam, Kawakebian …)
Can you blame them for thinking of you as USA’s fifth coloumn?
It is amazing, so you think that Iranians deserved the “coup” and the oppression of Shah and his crackdown on the opposition after the coup, but you believe the greens didn’t deserve the treatment that they got from the IR!!!”

I said we deserved the coup because religious figures such as Kashani and perhaps a younger Khomeini still had a say and people would listen to them like sheep. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying the 1953 coup was a good thing. I am not saying US did the right thing at the time. Believe me, I’ve brought up the 1953 coup time and time again as one of the biggest blunders of US foreign policy over the past century. BUT, the argument I am trying to make is that we can’t forever blame everything on foreigners. At some point we have to take responsibility. I think the GM is aware of this and they don’t want any foreign intervention. The fact that you and the hardliners continue to slap the foreign-assistance charge on the GM shows weakness on YOUR part. You’re essentially giving foreign powers too much credit for what is in fact an uprising of the people by the people. You present us with conflicting charges. On the one hand you say Iran is more powerful than ever before and the West can’t do a damn thing. On the other hand you say the West was able to infiltrate Iranian society and bring millions out to protest against the regime. So which is? You keep bringing up a velvet revolution as though you’re confessing that a large segment of our society is so unhappy with the system that they are willing to partake in the overthrow of the government. If you really had 63% of the vote, you wouldn’t have to worry about any velvet revolutions.

“You think that we can have a relationship based on mutual respect with USA? You mean like a relationship in which we “deserve” an occasional coup such as the one in 1953?
Look, relationship based on mutual respect between Iran and USA is like looking for a relationship based on equality and mutual respect between a lion and a deer! So you want relationships based on “mutual” respect? Sure….how about starting by US respecting NPT and stopping its harrasment on Iran for exercising its MOST BASIC rights under NPT? How about US giving back our money that it has from the time of Shah ogether with its INTEREST? How about US apologizing for the nuclear posture review and its threat to use nuclear arms against a non-nuclear Iran? How about US getting out of Persian Gulf? Do you see our navy in the gulf of Mexico? I can go on like this until tomorrow!”

I agree with all that the US is indebted to Iran. From Iran’s frozen assets to it’s right to nuclear energy. In fact, if it wasn’t for Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric, we would have had a much easier time convincing the world that us Iranians mean well. Ahmadinejad has done so much damage to our image that no one believes anything that comes out of his mouth. When he says there’s absolute freedom in Iran when clearly there isn’t, why should anyone believe him that he’s not after a nuclear bomb? When he doesn’t deny ever saying “wipe Israel off the map” how are we to convince the world that he won’t use such a bomb against Israel? He’s made it SO DIFFICULT to demand our most basic of rights and get back that which belongs to us. He’s created such an atmosphere that when someone says anything legit in regards to our rights the West can easily slap a “crazy” label on them that sticks. Mainly because of all the bull-shit that he has said.

5. “This “economic powerhouse” nonsense is some what similar to the word “populist”. It is just that it is the opposite. Populist is positive praise word which is being used as a negative word. “Economic powerhouse” is a very negative word (as the meaning that it insinuates) and it has come -by the lies of the corporate and reformist media- to mean a good thing! It will be off-topic for me to debate the misery of people in countries such as China, Brazil, Mexico and Argentine here. Suffice to say that “economic powerhosue” equals misery for the people.”

So this includes Ahmadinejad when he says Iran is going to be a “ghodrat eghtesadi?!” Why can’t Iran become like South Korea or Japan?

“IRGC controlling the economy is EXACTLY a corporate taking over the economy! IRGC in a effect has become a “government owned” corporation which owns a significant part of our economy. If you have no problem with corporations then you should be very happy with IRGC. Leader is nothing but the representative of the economic elite in Iran. Just as the US president is the representative of the lobbies which have given him their support and have brought him to power.”

A corporation with access to guns, tanks and missiles?! A corporation whose profit will benefit who exactly? What will they do with more profits? Inject it back in the economy or pocket it in their foreign bank accounts? Corporations and lobbies in the US for example at least have expertise in areas in which they function. What are the IRGC experts in? They get huge government contracts without much of a competition and a few people on the top pocket the money while spending little on the contracts they’re given. Look at all the highways that go broke within 3 years. Look at all the factories they’ve taken over and ruined. If you’re going to compare them with anyone out West you should compare them with Haliburton. They are like the Haliburton of Iran, only more corrupt and more powerful. And they use their power to suppress people. I’m not sure why you justify the MILITARY’s meddling in economy. No military should ever have anything to do with the economy. Let Iranian corporations come into existant and let them take over. Not the military. This is becoming very amusing how you constantly use US and the West as examples though.

6. “No actually. Al-Menar (the TV station of Hezballah) is banned in USA. Also as recently as January 2010, a bill passed in the congress which banned all sattelite TV stations which deemed hostile to US.”

I’m sure you can find ways to battle these bans. You if you wanted to can go to court and claims its a breech of your first amendment rights. Plus if they are on satellite no one will bother jamming their stations and risk the lives of population at large. So if someone really wanted to they could tune in to watch these stations. But people who think like you feel so marginalized that they won’t even bother fighting for their first ammendment rights. because fighting for it means partaking in the system.

“Actually no, as a matter of fact certain “books” are profiled in USA, and if you borrow them a few times from the library you are noticed and profiled by FBI. Do you know the content of the patriot act?
I once wrote a comment in response to Scott Lucas where I said this I quote myself here because it is relevant to this comment too…”

I’m not big fan of the patriat act. A lot of people in the US weren’t. Most democrats. There are countless fights being fought by civil liberties advocates to overturn many of the missteps of the patriat act. Countless documentary films have been made about it and its still very much part of a public debate. This is Bush-era policies that met with a lot of opposition in the US. If a US citizen were to be arrested for buying a book or watching a TV station, that person could fight and probably win out in court. But I can’t think of any cases where someone was actually arrested.

On a relative side note, I like to mention that I am extremely anti-Bush. I hated him and still do. Believe it or not I defended Ahmadinejad back in the US against his policies and said Bush was more evil than AN could ever be. And I still believe that Bush was more evil than Ahmadinejad. However, all the things you say in defense of Ahmadinejad you can say in defense of Bush as well. Because they are pretty similar. You defend AN’s foreign policy, you might as well defend Bush’s “you’re either with us or against us” doctrine. You defend AN’s in-your-face-rhetoric, you defend Bush’s “axis of evil” rhetoric. You defend AN’s support of Hezbollah and Hamas, you’re defending Bush’s war with terror. The problem with both Iran and US is when hardline conservatives take over. They are absolutists who see the world in a simple black and white.

7. “Ok, this is why you leave the impression of being an American right winger rather than an IRANIAN opposition supporter: You completely overlook the case of hostage taking for Mr. Majid Kakavand in France, you completely overlook the case of arrest of Iranian diplomates in Iraq for more than 3 years without any charges despite the vehement objections of the Iraqi government and despite international law protecting the people with diplomatic status, that is not a “hostage taking” in your opinion. You completely overlook the case of brazen kidnapping of the Iranian scientist called Shahram Amiri. When was it that Iranians brazenly kidnapped American scientists in a THIRD COUNTRY? That you don’t consider as an act of “hostage taking”! But if Iran uses a woman as bargaining chip to get his hostages released from the West that is an unacceptable case of “hostage taking”. Illegal arrest of DIPLOMATS in a third country (Iraq) and the open kidnapping of an Iranian scientist in Saudi Arabia is not hostage taking, on the contrary it is a sign that USA is ready to speak with us in an atmosphere of “mutual respect” but arrest of three US hikers for illegally entering the Iranian territory is a brazen case of hostage taking!”

In this day and age public opinion forms from what people see on TV and that public opinion helps governments advance their policies. So IMAGE is important in todays politics. Ahmadinejad and his gang have not learned the value and importance of images and how they could use it to THEIR advantage, to make THEIR cases. They keep taking the wrong steps and playing horribly with the cards they are dealt. Personally I have not seen any evidence against the French girl or the American hikers that would suggest they were spies. If you have, feel free to share. Just don’t be sending me links to Fars News. The fact they released the French girl just as they released Roxana Saberi so easily speaks volumes about whether they were really spies or just bargaining chips. BUT, for argument’s sake, let us assume that the 24 year old French girl was in fact not a lecturer but a bad-ass spy much like Angelina Jolie in Mr. And Mrs. Smith. Let’s assume she had in fact spied for France. To arrest her and have her sit in on one of the show trials when she LOOKED SO INNOCENT will make us appear as the evil country that takes hostages without any good reasons. Even if they had more evidence than her cell phone footage of the protests against her, even if she was guilty as charged, the IMAGE OF HER LOOKING SO YOUNG AND INNOCENT will work against us.

Compare her to the 3 Iranian diplomats US arrested in Iraq. Let’s assume they were the sweetest puppy-loving kindest innocent fellows one could come across. But it didn’t matter, because THEY LOOKED LIKE COLD HEARTED CRIMINALS. I personally get chills looking at their photos; they look like the Basijis who hit us with batons, not like educated diplomat types we want representing us. Same with the image of the 3 American Hikers. Let’s assume that they were in fact in Iran to spy on us. Let’s assume that no one will bother to ask what is it exactly that they could have possibly been spying on out in the middle of nowhere near the border. THEY LOOK LIKE 3 INNOCENT YOUNG PEOPLE OUT ON AN ADVENTUROUS BACKPACKING JOURNEY. You can’t compare them with businessmen who are caught red-handed dealing with IRGC. You can’t compare them with assassins who were convicted of killing someone. And as for the case of the missing scientist, the verdict is still out. I think he deflected like so many others like him. I doubt any US scientist will ever deflect to Iran!

“Once again the solid majority of the world population is behind us. World does not consist of US and its allies! All of NAM is behind us!”

Who? Name countries. And what will friendship with them get us, the Iranian people? Sure, people in Bolivia might like us cause we might give them money. But how can the Iranian people benefit from this relationship? How can we even benefit from our relationship with the Palestinians? (Before you use yet another American example; just as I don’t see how the American people might benefit from US’s strong ties to Israel.)

“And Iran is FAR more powerful than it was during Khatami. Our influence in the middle east has grown SIGNIFICANTLY from Iraq, to Lebanon and Afghanistan.”

Guess why Iran’s influence in the ME has grown! Because its two arch-enemies, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were taken out by W. So this has more to do with W’s missteps than with any AN achievement. Considering the new makeup of the Middle East Iran should have been a LOT more influencial at this stage. Again, if it wasn’t for Bush’s missteps when he reject Khatami’s call for a collaboration on securing Afghanistan, we would have had more of an influence in Afghanistan as well and today Afghans wouldn’t be protesting outside the Iranian embassy. But instead of all this, US and its allies are able to scare the bejesus out of the Arab countries in regards to Iran by so easily building a bad-man out of AN and selling them tons of weapons.

“At the tme of Khatami we were begging to have some enrichment activity in the level of research and development (and we were being denied out of the full respect that USA has for us and for our rights under NPT) today we are at the verge of Industrial level enrichment.”

How does this new deal work in that equation? The Uranium we do have we have from the time of Mousavi. The basis of much of our scientific achievements are fruits of the efforts that go back to Khatami’s era, not Ahmadinejad’s.

“Today, after 30 years of sanctions Iran has the HIGHEST scientific growth rate in the world! We are the 9th country to put a sattelite into orbit, we are one of the VERY few countries (I believe only 10) which has been able to do animal cloning, and we are in the first 25 (or maybe 19 I am not sure) countries in Nano technology.”

Now you sound like AN when he was comparing what the Islamic Republic has done compared to the time of the Shah. Where he inspired the joke “during the Shah we had no Internet, now we do! We had no cell phone users, now we have 40 million!”

“And Israel which you claim is in the stronger position is in a position that in fact has experienced the WORST defeat in it’s entire history (in Lebanon in 2006) thanks to your IR’s support for Hezballah. If today they are so reluctant to make a military attack on your country it is not because they have “respect” for you, it is IN PART because they are afraid what Iranian allies will do in retaliation to Israel! In the international arena, you don’t gain respect by kissing hands, you gain respect by showing “real” deterrence!”

You’re now not only echoing Bush, you’re quoting him! Admit it, you’re a Bush/Cheney supporter at heart! It’s a shame that Obama’s time in the White House didn’t coincide with Khatami’s time as President. And too bad Mousavi didn’t come to power as he deserved. The world would have been a better place…

Nazila Fathi is a joke, just like the New York Tims when it comes to Iran, Israel, the Middle East, Latin America,…These people churn out propaganda so much that sometimes they actually start believing it themselves!

The regime just issued more execution orders for people who were arrested on Ashura and other days. so I dont know how else the IRI agents and mouth pieces, like the Leveretts, can spin this one…. oh right, they wont, cuz they dont focus on Human Rights issues, that’s only when it doesn’t help their narrative though.

Thanks Scott Lucas for all you do.. I appreciate your patience with these uneducated ignorant fellows on this board who take the side of a murderous regime such as the one in Iran. I hope at least they get enough money for this.

6. “A person in the US could watch Press TV or Al Jazeera English if they wanted to.”
No actually. Al-Menar (the TV station of Hezballah) is banned in USA. Also as recently as January 2010, a bill passed in the congress which banned all sattelite TV stations which deemed hostile to US.
“They could access any website. And read opinions of the most obscure of thinkers.”
Actually no, as a matter of fact certain “books” are profiled in USA, and if you borrow them a few times from the library you are noticed and profiled by FBI. Do you know the content of the patriot act?
I once wrote a comment in response to Scott Lucas where I said this I quote myself here because it is relevant to this comment too:
“I would argue that this is not the case, and that the system in Iran is not fundamentally different from the “liberal democracies” in the West.
The fundamental difference does not lie in the structures of the two systems, but rather in the facts that one: the percapita income is disproportionately larger in the West than it is in Iran (which in turn is the result of gun point robbery under the name of colonialization and imperialism) and two: the West is the dominant military force on the globe and its security is not threatened by the covert (eg. CIA’s financing of subversive/terrorist activities inside Iran) and overt foreign military operations (eg. forced regime change, military invasion and laying military siege around Iran from Persian Gulf to the US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan). The West is not being threatened to be the target of a nuclear attack by Iran or any other state, Iran IS!! (AND NOW IN THIS COMMENT FOR GREENIO I ALSO ADD THIS: furthermore US dissidents are not under the strong suspicion of liaison with the Iranian government to do subversive activity in USA)
As a result the reactions to “dissent” is a bit different. If you go back to a time when there was a “communist” threat you will see that US government’s approach to a “communist” dissent manifested itself as “McCarthy era” during which luminaries such as Bertolt Brecht, Charlie Chaplin, Arthur Miller and even Einstein (for his support to Oppenheimer) were being constantly harrassed and prosecuted. In fact you don’t need to go even that far back in history, even to this day Al-menar (hezbollah’s TV station) is banned in USA, and recently there was a bill in the congress to ban all sattelite TV stations which deemed hostile to USA! Not to mention the case of prosecution of some of the shiite mosques in USA which were claimed to have connections to the Iranian government. A very similar arguement also applies to wests civil right approach.”

7. “Last but not least, on Ahmadinejad’s foreign policy. I mentioned hostages and i was referring to the likes of Clotide Rice (who just left Iran apparantly after being exchanged for an Iranian prisoner in France).”
Ok, this is why you leave the impression of being an American right winger rather than an IRANIAN opposition supporter: You completely overlook the case of hostage taking for Mr. Majid Kakavand in France, you completely overlook the case of arrest of Iranian diplomates in Iraq for more than 3 years without any charges despite the vehement objections of the Iraqi government and despite international law protecting the people with diplomatic status, that is not a “hostage taking” in your opinion. You completely overlook the case of brazen kidnapping of the Iranian scientist called Shahram Amiri. When was it that Iranians brazenly kidnapped American scientists in a THIRD COUNTRY? That you don’t consider as an act of “hostage taking”! But if Iran uses a woman as bargaining chip to get his hostages released from the West that is an unacceptable case of “hostage taking”. Illegal arrest of DIPLOMATS in a third country (Iraq) and the open kidnapping of an Iranian scientist in Saudi Arabia is not hostage taking, on the contrary it is a sign that USA is ready to speak with us in an atmosphere of “mutual respect” but arrest of three US hikers for illegally entering the Iranian territory is a brazen case of hostage taking!
My friend I am afraid what you are talking about is not a “mutual respect” but rather it is “unilateral respect”. You are not talking about equal rights you are talking about subservient relationship!
“The original hostage-takers as I said before regret the whole scenario. Though they believe at the time they did the right thing.”
The case of the original hostage taking is one which is heavily censored in USA. Reagan administration was up to its neck, involved in that case, and as such as guilty as the hostage takers. One of the reasons that is being “suggested”, as to why the Iranian government is so suspicious about the GM leaders is that a big part of their top leadership are the same people who were in close relationship with Americans/Israelies during the hostage crisis and Irangate after that. So Robert Parry suggests that the Iranians may have a rightful suspicion that these guys are still in business with their old masters. It is just that in the 80’s they did their bidding by taking hostages, and this time they are doing their bidding by attempting a velvet coup.
“You believe his policies have made us stronger, I believe they’ve isolated us and made us weaker. You believe he has a better bargaining position and can end up at a table with the US and the West as equals, I believe his policies and rhetoric have empowered the West, Israel and their allies. You believe majority of the world likes him. I believe they don’t. You think Ahmadinejad is next the messiah (!!!), I think he’s a simple man corrupted by power and greed. You think he has gotten us respect on the world stage, I think he has ruined our reputation.”

Once again the solid majority of the world population is behind us. World does not consist of US and its allies! All of NAM is behind us!
And Iran is FAR more powerful than it was during Khatami. Our influence in the middle east has grown SIGNIFICANTLY from Iraq, to Lebanon and Afghanistan. At the tme of Khatami we were begging to have some enrichment activity in the level of research and development (and we were being denied out of the full respect that USA has for us and for our rights under NPT) today we are at the verge of Industrial level enrichment. Today, after 30 years of sanctions Iran has the HIGHEST scientific growth rate in the world! We are the 9th country to put a sattelite into orbit, we are one of the VERY few countries (I believe only 10) which has been able to do animal cloning, and we are in the first 25 (or maybe 19 I am not sure) countries in Nano technology.
And Israel which you claim is in the stronger position is in a position that in fact has experienced the WORST defeat in it’s entire history (in Lebanon in 2006) thanks to your IR’s support for Hezballah. If today they are so reluctant to make a military attack on your country it is not because they have “respect” for you, it is IN PART because they are afraid what Iranian allies will do in retaliation to Israel!
In the international arena, you don’t gain respect by kissing hands, you gain respect by showing “real” deterrence!

Thank you for your reply. When I mean Green Leaders I mean Moussavi and Karroubi. Of course the regime has arrested mid level players and some working directly for these folks. However, for some strange reason they have not arrested the two top leaders. Why? As I stated I believe it is because the regime realizes to do so could enflame the people. Now why are they worried about the people if as they state 62% of the population supports them? It would seem we have a bit of a contradiction. In your defense I do also realize a minority can cause quite a bit of havoc and that may be why the regime is holding off as well.

As for the “summary executions” I understand your point and I believe your point is that this type of killing is done without a trial and on the spot. However I have seen “summary executions” defined as a verdict with no trial not concerned with timing just that it will happen at some random time. Thus I guess it depends on how you look it. Personally for me the determinent of “Summary” is not necessarily the timing but simply the lack of any true fair and objective legal proceedings.

I hope that explains my point.

Thx
Bill

Your response to greenio (comparing Iran and India) was excellent and it reveals how almost all of his statements are flawed.

Please read:

http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/pages/?cid=98921

You know it really doesn’t help that you keep referring to me as “you people.” I respect you enough to talk to you as an individual with a set of beliefs that I as an individual may or may not agree with. This thing is getting out of control and we’re better off summarizing for the archives and leaving it at that.

1. You argue majority of Iranians belong to a lower working class while I argue majority belongs to a middle-class who has taken a hit from the economic policies of not just the past five years, but the past 31 years. You bring up the 15% illiteracy rate and I look at the 85% literacy rate and the high percentage of college graduates. You say majority are pro-Ahmadinejad, I say they are anti-Ahmadinejad. We disagree on everything in regards to the population of Iran.

2. You say supporters of the Green Movement are brainwashed by their leaders into thinking like they do. I say Basijis and supporters of the hardliners in power are brainwashed by their leaders. I believe Basijis are thugs. You believe GM activists or students are thugs. I think the country is not headed in the right direction if one side holds absolute power and does not allow the other side to even express its opinion. You for the most part believe its neccessary evil and for some reason the only person you keep mentioning to show that there is freedom in Iran is Zibakalam! I say there are hundreds of people in prisons because of their political beliefs, you say they are foreign agents and they deserve to be (you can correct me on these, but let’s simplify).

3. We both agree the regime crackdown was brutal and stupid. You believe those killed were victims who were deceived and used as tools by their leaders. I believe they WERE the leaders who lead the movement. Mouasvi followed them and not them Mousavi. I doubt Mousavi imagined one day becoming the leader of a movement that calls for an “Iranian Republic!”

4. You are clearly very anti-American and anti-West. I’m not. The day Americans and or any other migrant groups in Iran have equal rights as Iranians do in the US is the day I will even begin to draw comparisons. Yes AIPAC is powerful in the US. But Iranian lobby is only now forming and within a couple of decades Iranian-Americans will have a say in the US as well. They are already being elected to offices around the country. And you can’t compare Obama’s rise to power to Ahmadinejad’s. The day son of a Christian immigrant rises up to be the leader of Iran we can even begin to compare. We both however agree that Western countries have been the cause of much evil over the past few centuries. But I think it would be futile to constantly blame them for everything that is wrong with our world today by living in the past. At one point we have to take responsiblity for our actions and accept that we had it coming. I hate to say it, we deserved Mossadegh’s overthrow by the CIA. People weren’t ready for him. He was way ahead of his time. Mullahs like Ayatollah Kashani still had a say (and were easily bought by the CIA — a detail the Islamic Republic ignores in its rewrite of history). I believe we can have a good relationship based on mutual respect with the West and US without the adventurism of the likes of Ahmadinejad. You believe anything BUT Ahmadinejad’s way would be treacherous and giving in to their demands.

5. I think Iran HAS to become an economic powerhouse. Not sure how that is possible, you probably have better ideas on this. But we both agree that monetary interests have the final say in every country. I would rather see corporations take over; you are happy with… the Leader?! I’m actually not clear as to where you stand on this. To me corporations aren’t as evil as you make them out to be. I am however very much against the IRGC controling the economy. I think its very stupid to have a military force be in control of all financial resources and make the decisions. Again, i am not sure what your opinion on this is. In your rewrite correct all this.

6. On media, I think we both agree on the evils of the corporate media. I am also assuming that we agree on the evils of IRIB. What we disagree on is what voice if any an alternative media may have. A person in the US could watch Press TV or Al Jazeera English if they wanted to. They could access any website. And read opinions of the most obscure of thinkers. In fact, you yourself (still not sure where your location is), but you and people like you who have opinions way off the mainstream line of thinking are a testament to that. You have managed to form your opinions because you have had access to alternative sources. The difference between you and someone who watches Fox News all day is that you have worked hard to GET your news and you’re not delivering me talking points. If you stop calling me “you people” you may in fact give me credit as well. After all we found each other on a site belonging to people whom I am against. The fact that I am here proves that I do read what those who don’t think like me are saying. I am curious as you are and I plan on keeping it that way as you will. But I will never expect that from majority of the world’s population. (My favorite newscaster btw is Jon Stewart and the Daily Show!) That said, in Iran most websites belonging to alternative voices are blocked. All opposition websites are blocked. Satellites are jammed. Books with alternative thoughts to that of the islamic republic are hard to come by. And the Ahmadinejad government is going as far as rewriting history in favor of their own line of thinking. Not sure if you’ve seen how they’ve taken out many of the kings in Iran’s history from history books in schools! This is a shame. I am really against this. I wish you were too. (and one of the charges brought up against Maziar Bahari apart from the charge that he spied for CIA, Mussad, MI5 and Newsweek, was that he did an interview with The Daily Show! Is it me or is this not insane?!)

7. Last but not least, on Ahmadinejad’s foreign policy. I mentioned hostages and i was referring to the likes of Clotide Rice (who just left Iran apparantly after being exchanged for an Iranian prisoner in France). The original hostage-takers as I said before regret the whole scenario. Though they believe at the time they did the right thing. What’s crazy is that Ahmadinejad and the hardliners continue to brag about the hostage crisis as though it was a shining moment in Iran’s history. You should see their celebrations on each anniversary. I digress… You believe his policies have made us stronger, I believe they’ve isolated us and made us weaker. You believe he has a better bargaining position and can end up at a table with the US and the West as equals, I believe his policies and rhetoric have empowered the West, Israel and their allies. You believe majority of the world likes him. I believe they don’t. You think Ahmadinejad is next the messiah (!!!), I think he’s a simple man corrupted by power and greed. You think he has gotten us respect on the world stage, I think he has ruined our reputation.

***

Damn it. We just can’t keep it short can we… Please feel free to edit the above list as needed. You will have to rewrite the parts about what you think. I want us to come up with a list of what we think on each topic that I could think of (feel free to add to it) and simply juxtapose the thoughts. We’ll let others decide. If there are “others” at this point!