Photo by John Moore / Getty Images
Today, the Islamic Republic’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, addressed the congregation attending Friday prayers at the University of Tehran. As usual when the Leader speaks publicly, his listeners included a nationwide television audience in Iran. But, on this occasion, his audience also extended across the Middle East, and Khamenei delivered part of his remarks in Arabic. For Khamenei was speaking less than two weeks after the start of a remarkable cycle of popular protests in Egypt that marked the beginning of the end of President Hosni Mubarak’s 30-year tenure, and the Leader wanted to talk directly to people in Egypt and across the Arab world.
In his remarks, Khamenei said that “developments in North Africa, Egypt, Tunisia and some other countries have a special meaning for the Iranian nation. This is what was always referred to as the Islamic awakening created by the victory of the great Islamic revolution of the Iranian nation and is showing itself today.” Focusing on Egypt and its long-time President, Hosni Mubarak, Khamenei said that “for 30 years this country has been in the hands of someone who is not seeking freedom and is the enemy of those seeking freedom. Not only is he not anti-Zionist, but he is the companion, colleague, confidant, and servant of Zionists. It is a fact that Hosni Mubarak’s servitude to America has been unable to take Egypt one step towards prosperity.” Khamenei also underscored the strategic significance of what was happening in Egypt: “If they are able to push this through then what will happen to U.S. policies in the region will be an irreparable defeat for America”.
In substance, Khamenei’s remarks amplified and extended—with, of course, the unique authority of his office—observations made by other senior political and religious figures in Iran about the crisis in Egypt. Just a week before Khamenei spoke at the University of Tehran, the city’s interim Friday prayer leader, Ayatollah Seyed Ahmad Khatami, claimed that “all these protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Jordan, and Yemen are inspired by Iran’s Islamic revolution” and that “an Islamic Middle East is being created based on Islam, religion, and democracy”. Likewise, majles speaker Ali Larijani described events in Egypt and Tunisia as “a kind of Islamic awakening that the Westerners should pay attention to.” Noting that “the most important of Imam Khomeini’s eternal legacies in the contemporary world was his offering a model for religious democracy”, Larijani said that, if the United States would stop interfering, people in Egypt “will show you what kind of democracy they want…Then they will express their hatred of the US.”
All of these remarks reflect an important reality dramatically underscored by events in Egypt: the balance of power in the Middle East is, in fact, shifting, away from the United States and its allies and in favor of the Islamic Republic and its partners. Moreover, Tehran is not just a beneficiary of this shift; the Islamic Republic has, through its foreign policy and national security strategy, helped to bring it about.
We are grateful to a www.RaceForIran.com contributor who has provided his translation of Khamenei’s remarks, delivered in Arabic and addressed to the Egyptian people, which we are pleased to highlight below:
“Greetings to the entire Muslim Ummah wherever they are. At this moment in the Islamic world, a grand and glorious phenomenon is occurring that will determine the destiny. A phenomenon that can completely revolutionize the arrogant powers’ equation in favor of all the people of the region. A phenomenon that could restore the respect and dignity of the Arab nations and Islamic Ummah. A phenomenon that could wipe away and cleanse decades of miasma of oppression, humiliation, and degradation coming from the direction of the United States and the West over these ancient people and well-rooted nations.
This miraculous event began by the people of Tunisia and has reached its climax by the great and mature people of Egypt. It has taken away the breath of two worlds: the West and the Islamic world; each for their own reason. Each is waiting to see the Great Egypt, the Egypt of outstanding people of the recent century; Egypt of Muhammad Abdeh and Seyyed Jamal; Egypt of Sa’ad Zeghloul and Ahmed Shoghi; Egypt of Jamal Abdol-Nasser and Al-Sheykh Hassan Al-bana; Egypt of 1967 and 1973; what will today’s Egypt do? How high will it hold its flag of determination? If this flag, God forbids, falls, a dark and gloomy era will follow. If this flag is raised to the peak and is secured, it will raise its head high up in the skies.
The people of Tunisia were able to evict a traitor, a slave of US, a force against principles. However, it would be a misjudgment if it is assumed that this could be the ultimate desired outcome. A regime that lacks sovereignty will not collapse with the exit of its most noticeable pawn. If other pawns, other associates replace him, nothing has changed. Only the net of deception has been cast wider. In the Islamic Republic of Iran, they wished, so many times, to trap our nation. But vigilance by our awakened nation and Godly grand leader learned the enemy’s trickery and neutralized it. And they have continued their path.
But Egypt, the very issue of Egypt is an exceptional example. Because Egypt is an exceptional country among Arab nations. Egypt is the first country in the Islamic word that became acquainted with the European culture. By the same token, it is also the first country in the Islamic world that got to know what it means to be subjected to the dangers of cultural aggression, and to oppose such aggression. It is the first country that formed a truly independent Arabic country after World War II and began to defend its national interest especially as it related to Suez Canal. It is the first country that stood up to help the Palestinians with all its might and became known in the Islamic world as the champion of the Palestinians. Seyyed Jamal’eddin was not Egyptian. However, he found that no other place but Egypt could offer a glimpse of hope to deeply understand a Muslim nation’s great predicament. The nation of Egypt, in both religious and political scent, proved its worthin ess that is recorded in history. Muhammad Abdeh and his students, Sa’ad Zeghlol and his followers were not some fanatic callow individuals. They were a group of such exceptional, brave, and awakened geniuses that if any nation could produce only one such character, that nation is justified in its pride. Egypt with its depth in culture, in religion, in politics, it indeed occupied it rightful place of leadership in the Arab world.
The greatest crime of this current regime in Egypt is that it brought down a great nation from an elevated status to that of lowly helpless pawn in political games in the region. The explosion we are witnessing in the great Egyptian nation is a response to this unforgivable crime a dependent dictator committed against his people.
Today, all over the world, they are offering multiple colorful analysis about the uprising of the Egyptian nation. Everyone is saying something different. However, only those who truly know Egypt can clearly see that Egypt has risen up to defend its dignity and its integrity. The Egyptian nation has grabbed a traitor criminal by his collar so that it can free itself from he who auctioned off its dignity, he who brought it down from the height of pride, he who sacrificed the honor and pride of a nation at the alter of superiority and arrogance of its enemies. The most obvious of these was the Egyptians status with respect to Palestinians. Palestine, for decades, has been a core issue in this region. The complexity and interwoven nature of all regional problems are such that no nation in the region can separate its own destiny from that of the Palestinians. Only two fronts exists: either defending the Palestinians and their just struggle, or joining the opposite camp.
The nations of the region have clarified their position. It is such that any government that defends Palestinians, it garnishes the support of its own people and Arab and Muslim nations. Egypt know this by experiences of 60s and 70s. Any time its government defines itself within the framework of the opposite camp, it loses its own people’s support. In Egypt, it was since Camp David that a great divide was created between the Egyptian people and the government. The Egyptian people which defended the Palestinians with their own lives and material possessions gradually witnessed their rulers had exceeded their subservience and obedience of the US to a degree that Egypt has turned into one of the most faithful cosigners of a Zionist enemy invader. United States’ domination over Egyptian people has been so severe that it annulled so much hardship the Egyptian people endured in defense of Palestine. It changed Egypt to the greatest enemy of the Palestine and greatest protector of Zionists.
This was happening with Egypt while Syria, Egypt’s ally in 67 and 73 wars, maintained its independence despite enormous pressures from U.S. Shamelessness of Egyptian regime’s subservience reached a point that for the first time in history, the Egyptian people witnessed that in the war Israel waged against their brothers in Gaza, their government placed itself in Israel’s camp. Not only did it not help their brothers but also worked actively in enemy’s camp. The history will never forget that Hosni Mubarak is the same person who was the collaborator, confidant, and partner along with Israel and the US in the most horrific siege of the people of Gaza and 22 days of massacre of women, men, and children of Gaza. One can only imagine how the Egyptian people were feeling those days. Television scenes were showing the depth of despair felt by the Egyptian people’s tears and cries were talking about how they are not allowed to rush to their brothers’ help and respond to t heir cries for help. How much more do you think this Muslim Egyptian nation can tolerate and endure pain? What is being witnessed today in Cairo and other cities in Egypt is an explosion of sacred anger. It is an eruption of hidden wounds accumulated and festered for years through the behaviors of an un-Muslim and traitor regime.
The uprising of Muslim Egyptian nation is an Islamic and freedom-seeking movement. I, in the name of the people and government of Iran, send salutations to you and pray to God for your complete victory. Of you and your uprising I am filled with pride. There is no doubt that each nation’s uprising is unique and entirely dependent upon their geographic, historical, political, and cultural confounders. It is not realistic or logical to expect that what happened during the great Islamic revolution in Iran 30 years ago to happen exactly as such in Egypt, Tunisia, or any other Islamic country. However, there are some commonalities among them that experiences of one nation could be useful for another. Followings are the experiences that might prove useful:
1. In every uprising, the real war is between the wills. The side that perseveres and endures hardship, is the side that is definitely victorious. Quran teaches us that:
إنّ الّذینَ قالُوا رَبُّنُا اللَّه ثُمَّ استَقامُوا تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَیهِمُ المَلائِکَه ألَّا تَخافُوا وَ لا تَحزَنُوا وَ أبشِرُوا بِالجَنَّهِ الَّتی کُنتُم تُوعَدونَ
And it warns the Prophet that: فَلِذلِکَفَادعُوَاستَقِمکَمااُمِرتَ وَ لا تَتَّبِع أهواءَهُم The enemy tries to bend your will by force or by deception. However, make sure you remain steadfast.
2. The enemy tries to convince you that you can never reach your goals and instills hopelessness in you. However, God promises:
وَنُرِیدُ أَن نَمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِینَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِی الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِینَ وَلَیَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن یَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِیٌّ عَزِیزٌ
3. The enemy is arming and mobilizing its paid agents and security forces so that they create insecurity and chaos to a degree that you are fed up. Do not be afraid of them. You are stronger than them. You are at the following stage where the Prophet and his companions were once:
یَا أَیُّهَا النَّبِیُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِینَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن یَکُن مِّنکُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ یَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَیْنِ وَإِن یَکُن مِّنکُم مِّئَةٌ یَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِینَ کَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ یَفْقَهُونَ Trust God and mobilized and organize your inspired youth and you could overcome any insecurity and chaos.
4. The most critical weapon a nation has when facing hired rulers and arrogant powers is unity and concordance. Your enemies will employ every deceptive tactic to divide you. For example, they bring up natural disagreements to drive a wedge; they inject deviating slogans; they introduce unknown faces by causing an elevation of their characters; they introduce known faces with known reputation but untrustworthy as a replacement for a traitor president. Solidify your unity based on your religion and salvation of your country from paid enemies.
وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّـهِ جَمِیعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا
5. Do not trust the political maneuvering of US and the west. Until a few days ago, they were defending a corrupt regime. Now that they have lost hope, they have begun paying lip service to the right of nations. Under this guise, they are trying to, once again, force upon you their own agents. This is the greatest insult to other nations’ intelligence. Do not tolerate this insult and do not submit to anything but the establishment of a system that is independent, works for the people, and genuinely adheres to Islam.
6. Those learned people and scholars of religion who have a bright legacy should step up. A people who began its uprising from a mosque and during a Friday prayer and cries out “Allah Akbar” indeed have a justified expectation of their learned people.
7. The Egyptian army has the honor of having participated in at least two wars against Zionist enemy. This army is now facing the greatest test in its history. The enemy wants to use the army against the people. God forbids if such event occurs, that would be the greatest tragedy for the Egyptian army that can never be healed. That entity against which the Egyptian army must stand is the Zionists and not the Egyptian people. Certainly, those components of the army who are of the people and their children will eventually join the people. This sweet experience will once again be repeated in Egypt.
8. Finally, United States which for 30 years has supported a cruel ruler against his own people is not in any position to enter the scene as an honest arbiter. Regard any American act with suspicion and do not trust it.
My beloved brothers and sisters! These are our experiences. I, as a Muslim brother and out of my religious duties and obligations, shared these experiences with you. The enemies trumpets will be played loudly just as they have always been. They will claim Iran want to interfere. They will say Iran wants to turn Egypt into a Shi’a nation. They will say Iran wants to export “Velayat Faghih” (Guardianship of the Learned and Pious). And Iran wants….Iran wants… Iran wants….They have repeated these lies for 30 years to keep our nations and people apart and deprive us from helping one another. They say these and their paid lackeys will repeat these.
یُوحِی بَعْضُهُمْ إِلَى بَعْضٍ زُخْرُفَ الْقَوْلِ غُرُورًا وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّکَ مَا فَعَلُوهُ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا یَفْتَرُونَ
With these deceptive tactics, we will never abandon our obligations which have been bestowed upon us by Islam. و الله من وراء القصد. (Only God knows true intentions.) واستغفرالله لی و لکم.”
Sarah Palin probably thinks Mubarak left in honor of her birthday.
Irshad,
Yes, as a technical matter perhaps, Russia has a small reason to be concerned about “missile defence” system being used to compromise offensive missiles of Russia. But what chance is there of Russia needing to use missiles? Very near zero.
There is talk from time to time that Russia could join Nato.
Irshad,
Re: your take on recent comments by David Cameron. Are you familiar with the work of the Prince of Wales, fostering small business start-ups etc in the UK as part of larger effort to achieve full integration of all groups into the life of the country?
I do not think you have any need to worry about the rights of Muslims in the UK. Cameron wants better integration and economic success for the various Muslim communities in the UK.
Castellio,
Let’s remember Turkey would not allow its territory to be used to stage invasion of Iraq. Lots of idiotic noises from neocons, other delusional Republicans, foolish “liberal” Democrats et al. came to nothing.
@James Canning & fyi
Russia is very worried about missle defence – they simply cannot afford to develop new missles and were very desperate for the recent START agreement to be agreed witht he USA as they cannot afford to keep the number of missle launchers at current levels.
Have you all noticed how Dr Liam Fix gave his speech on the same day as David Cameron was telling everyone in Munich that multiculturalism is dead and did not work and Muslims are all potential terrorist who will seek to attack and kill regardless of anything as there is a dangerous ideology that only Muslims subscribe to.
All this on the day that the English Defence League (bunch of racist Islamaphobes and thugs) were demonstrating against Islam and Muslims in Luton,waving the flags of England and Isreal!
@fyi – I still disagree with your call for Iran to go nuclear – I think Iran is waiting for one of the potential nuclear weapons states such as Brazil, Japan, South Korea to develop nuclear weapons before it goes that route. It will be better for Iran to develop and purchase anti-satelite missles, anti-ship missles and thermobaric weapons such as the fuel air bomb.
This will make any agressor think twice before deciding to attack any country.
Iran should work hard to improve relations with regional states and emphasise that it does not want nukes but if attacked everything is off the table and except all means will be taking to protect Iran.
fyi,
I think you should keep in mind how the warmongering neocons et al. in Washington used the UK to camouflage their conspiracy to use false intelligence to set up the illegal invasion of Iraq. Liam Fox probably is helping to provide cover for stooges of the Israel lobby in Washington.
fyi,
Turkey is under no threat from the US or the EU. Of course, warmongering neocons, other idiot Republicans, and foolish “liberal” Democrats, do not like Turkey’s sensible foreign policy. Your apparent call for Iran to build nukes is the worst advice possible under the circumstances.
glorious expression, a rattling valuable article. Convey you.reetings. I arise your place to you continuing success.
Persian Gulf says: February 6, 2011 at 10:57 pm
To me, the extent of their enmity and the logic behind it was not obvious until Dr. Khalilzad’s fine exposition of the US-EU Axis Grand Strategy.
I do not have any criticism of Mr. Khamenei in regards to his poistion on Egypt.
Any change of government in Egypt is in the interest of the Egyptian people and the Islamic Republic.
In regards to Mr. Karrubi – I recall his efforts on behalf of Mr. Aqajeri when another one of these foolish Muslim Judges had issued yet another dis-honorable verdict as a provocation against Mr. Khatami. I will never say anything against Mr. Karrubi because of what he tried to do.
fyi says: February 6, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Are you warning Iran, and her leaders, against having any trust on the U.S-EU Axis? why should Iran just do that after years of threat, sanctions, propaganda…? (who else, other than Iran’s leaders and her people, was the subject of these stuff?) Are you afraid of Iran’s leaders, especially Khamenei, being totally fool, and ignorant, not to go to full nuclear while they have the chance to do so?
isn’t it obvious that the West wants the destruction of Iran and the Iranian nation? their politicians openly say it in the media, in plain language. it doesn’t need any sort of analysis, in my view.
I think, Mr.Khamenei’s bold action regarding Egypt was a correct one. the situation is very uncertain over there ,true, but statesmanship is a gambling sometimes. you can’t be low profile all the time. and Iran was getting the blame anyway.
I am just surprised why he doesn’t put this idiot, Karoubi, in jail for the rest of his life. As I said before, the system is losing a historic opportunity to remove Hashemi the monster, and somehow idiot Mousavi while it’s implementing the subsidy reform. by all accounts, they have acted against the basic interests of Iran in the past 2 years, at least.
Castellio says: February 6, 2011 at 5:47 pm
Mr. Fox is not a political novice.
He has made an implicit (reallyu explicit when you consider the context) threat against Turkey.
Turkish economy, for decades, has been dependent on financing from the EU banks.
A sceanrio such as the one employed by US-EU Axis against Yugoslavia could be implemented against Turkey.
The first goal would be to de-stablize the Turkish economy; the way US accomplished this against the late Dr. Allende’s legal and democratically elected government in Chile or US-EU Axis did against Yugoslavia.
The seond goal would be to affect a government change from AKP to another fool of a leader along the lines of Lon Nol, Thieu, Hussein, etc.
The third would be to resume the propaganda war against Iran on the pretext of nuclear weapons and brow-beat Turkey – under the threat of financial ruin – to go along with it.
Of course, Iran could offer Turkey financial help to neutralize the first step.
But, fundamentally, Iran must put a stop to the machinations of US-EU Axis by rapidly nuclearizing. That is the only way to permanently get US-EU Axis off Iran’s back.
In Iran, there are already those who are considering a post AKP and hostile government to Iran.
James, I don’t actually think there’s a zero chance of Turkish troops attacking Iran, I just think there’s a negligible chance with this government, and a very small chance with any government. (It would be, though, to give FYI some credit, a wet dream for the US and the Israelis, and it can be agreed they would pursue it vigorously even if it were a remote possibility.)
Israel: ‘Not to exist or coexist, that’s the question’
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/israel-not-to-exist-or-coexist-thats-the-question/
Irshad,
I am confident that any “missile defence” system the US taxpayers are forced to pay for, in Europe, would be useless. And I wonder if the Russian leadership are actually concerned that their offensive missile strike capability would actually be compromised? Possibly. The primary purpose of such a system would be to give cover for yet another hosing of the ignorant US taxpayers by the armaments manufacturers.
Russia will have its hands full for decades to come, just to maintain the territorial integrity of the Russian Federation.
Fiorangela,
David Wormser is a delusional Zionist warmonger. But at least he lets out the truth: warmongering neocons and foolish “liberal” Democrats are not necessarily concerned about Iran’s supposed nuclear weapons programme. What they worry about is how Israel can continue to f*ck the Palestinians if Iran continues to give support to the Palestinians. In other words, how can Israel keep the West Bank (and the Golan Heights) if Iran says this is not going to happen?
Castellio,
I agree with you there is zero chance Turkey would attack Iran. Zero. Laim Fox seems to be delusional on issues pertaining to Israel and Iran.
Persian Gulf,
Are you asking if I thought US policy toward Iran made sense in the 1970s? I said that the key factor was Israel, and that the US did not object to the growing power of Iran because Israel did not object.
FYI… do you believe Turkish troops would attack Iran? I confess, that thought had never occurred to me, nor that Erdogan would support it. Are you projecting an overthrow of the Turkish government first?
fyi,
Liam Fox often sounds like an American neocon even though he is British defence minister.
موج چهارم بيداري اسلامي
(يادداشت ميهمان)
http://www.kayhannews.ir/891118/2.htm#other204
Empty , would you check to see if you are interested to translate this article
All:
More of the same – UK Defense Minister is alluding to war with Iran and indirectly threatening Turkey as well.
Per the script that I outlined earlier.
Iran should plan for Turkish attack from the Northwest and US-EU Axis attack from the South and West.
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/uk-to-israel-help-us-curb-iran-with-palestine-deal
UK to Israel: help us curb Iran with Palestine deal
06 Feb 2011
Source: reuters // Reuters
By Dan Williams
JERUSALEM, Feb 6 (Reuters) – Israel could bolster the international campaign to head off Iran's nuclear programme by pursuing peace with the Palestinians, Britain said on Sunday.
The remarks by Defence Secretary Liam Fox ran counter to arguments by Israel, whose negotiations with the Palestinians stalled last year in a dispute over West Bank settlements, that Palestine talks hinged on first curbing its Iranian arch-foe. “The United Kingdom is pushing for stronger sanctions to influence Iran, but the importance of the Middle East peace process should not be overlooked,” Fox told the Herzliya Conference, an annual Israeli security forum. “Progress towards a two-state solution — a secure and universally recognised Israel alongside a viable and contiguous Palestinian state — is important for defusing the malign political influence of Iran in the region.”
Britain and other world powers held unsuccessful talks in Istanbul last month with Iran, which denies seeking the bomb. Calling the prospect of the Iranians' sometimes secretive uranium enrichment project yielding warheads a “disaster”, Fox said: “We want a negotiated solution. But Iran needs to change its approach fundamentally if we are to achieve that outcome … We will not look away, and we will not back down.”
He added a warning that appeared aimed at Turkey, which has balked at sanctions and championed accommodation with Tehran. The United States has also scrutinised Gulf Arabs suspected of serving as intermediaries for Iranian foreign trade.
“For sanctions to work, regional powers and neighbours need to make sure they are not used by Iran to help it avoid or water down the impact of economic sanctions,” Fox said.
“Those who allow Iran to avoid the effect of sanctions are themselves an obstacle to the peaceful resolution of the Iran problem.”
Fox linked the malaise in Israeli-Palestinian engagement, and wider regional conflicts, to Britain's national security.
“What happens here can have a direct impact on the national security of the United Kingdom — our prosperity and the safety of our citizens,” he said. “Threats originating in one part of the globe can become threats in all parts of the globe.”
Fox said Britain's Conservative-led government acknowledged that Israel, whose own nuclear capabilities are undeclared, had a “unique set of security concerns”. He offered praise for its military know-how that seemed to part with past British censure of Israeli crackdowns on the Palestinians. London had at times imposed limited arms embargoes against Israel in response.
“We enjoy a strong bilateral defence relationship with Israel. This is a relationship that, thankfully, is growing and maturing. It is a relationship that enables our operations, and in some cases, keeps British troops alive in Afghanistan,” he said. (Editing by Jon Hemming)
Fiorangela says: February 6, 2011 at 2:22 pm
The Free Market is an idealized model for production of goods and services. I think it was only approximated for a brief period of time during US expansion into the Western America.
This market is always unstable, that left to itself, its operation will lead to first the destruction of enviornmental substance and then to that of human substance of society, followed by the destruction of the market mechanism itself.
To prevent that, governments always have to intervene in the operations of these semi-unregulated markets. US leaders, on the other hand, seemed to have been inspired by a theoretical model of Free Market that only existed in the minds of an ahistorical people.
Islam was a commercial culture from the start and Islamic Law, in my opinion, has good graps of commercial and contract law but not banking or modern finance.
fyi says:February 6, 2011 at 12:21 pm
I accept that these are legal opinions that a believer may choose to conform to or not.
But that is not the position of vast majority of Muslims and certainly not the leaders of Islamic Revolution in Iran.
For them, conformance to the Islamic Law and its enforcement is the core duty of Islamic state. Individual choice has no scope in their scheme.
And so we have the absurdities of the Moral Police, that 3 Doctors of Religion say one things and one says something else, and that for 23 years Islamic punishments are “experimentally” applied.
What is the Trut here?
Which Laws should the state enforce?
And what if the Law is both immoral and wrong – say Laws on Slavery.
[One of my relations married a Christian and since some Shia scholar opined hundreds of years ago that a (Shia) Muslim woman cannot marry outside of Islam, teh state would not recognize her marriage.]
In regards to the Grand Mufti; I hope his contributions are noted by other Sunni Scholars and considered in the future developments of that Tradition.
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:43 pm
Did the U.S have any other option back then? I thought you said before that (stupidly) there was no plan B.
iran is the heart empire
iranian shia export justice
Long Live Iran
long live khamenei
@fyi & james canning
(from previous thread)
James – yes Missle defence is a waste of money and is just another attempt of the military industrial complex to suck money from the public for many years to come – however, there is a potential that it may actually one day work and neutralising Russias last vestige claim of been a superpower – its nuclear missle strike forces. How would Russia behave if it realises that is offensive capability has been neutralised? America and Europe can then do what they like where they like without fearing the Russians. Sometimes, I wonder that the current Russian policy of been the sole supplier of nautral gas to europe and its delivery means is their answer to blackmailing and threathening Europe – if its nuclear missles are neutralised.
@fyi – I wouldnt worry too much about the Grand Strategy of the US – who would have thought that a man who self-immolates himeslef in the unknown town of Sidi Bouzid, leads to one tyrants downfall and causes another to be on the verge of a downfall and is causing an earthquake in the region politicaly speaking? I bet u, no one in any of the think tanks or in the inteliigence dept. could have ever thought of this scenario.
Its a case of the unknown unknown rather then the known unknown.
Khalizads talk about grand strategy is already in trouble – especially after the 2008 war between Russia and Georgia, after which the Russians mentioned 5 things that they considered a national priority and would go to war over and one of them is, they dont want foereign meddling in “spheres of Russian influence” – this was greatly rejected and ridiculed by US and EU – the crazy thing is both of them have their spheres of influence too. Also the economic crisis has hit Europe hard and america – I realistically dont see Britain or Germany going to fight another war somewhere far very soon – as this will be politically suicide. If US wants to bomb and invade anyone, she will have to rely on herself and Isreal.
Iran will be ensuring there are “facts on the grounds” over the next year or so – Iraq alligning with the axis of resistance, Iran launching satelites in to space (I read on PressTV that they was planning 2 launches this month), success of the subsidiary plan, closer intergration of Iran, pakistan, China – something you mentioned and I talked about in an earlier post long time ago. This was demonstrated when Iran allowed Chinese figther planes to land in Iran for refuelling on their way to and from Turkey last year – I think this was the 1st time this was allowed, the Russians didnt even get this privilege. Also, which way is the Stan states in central asia going to swing….time will tell…but we always gota be wary of the known known, known unknowns and the unknown unknown aswell as Divine grace and mercy.
fyi says: February 6, 2011 at 11:20 am
The project of replacing man as God has long reached its standstill. I thought we are living in the post post modernity.
As for the collapse in 1991, I am not sure if it ever was the engine at all. but capitalism certainly is. again not a very radical notion, not necessarily a Godless one.
I wonder if this people are protesting just for bred certainly that’s how government inspired US media is asked to portray , I wonder if Scott Lucas going to ad a link of this report on his site.
http://www.zogby.com/blog/loader.cfm?p=/2011/02/04/egyptians-disappointed-with-president-obama-dislike-us-policies/
Egyptians Disappointed with President Obama, Dislike US Policies
February 4th, 2011
The Egyptian people aren’t thinking about the U.S. as they take to the streets against the rule of Hosni Mubarak, but they will certainly judge how we have dealt with their insurrection. Based on our polling done there last summer, we do know that Egyptians are disappointed with President Barack Obama and have a decidedly negative view of U.S. policy in the Middle East.
The Obama Administration has been cautious, urging Mubarak to enact reforms and make way for a democratic transition from his 30-year rule, and using the billions in aid we give Egypt as leverage. We don’t know exactly what is being said through diplomatic channels, especially with the Egyptian military, which relies on our funding and whose officers have been trained at U.S. military colleges. The protestors would welcome more overt and public support from the U.S., but given what we know about their opinions of us, they were not counting on it.
While the data I’m reporting here may portray alarmingly hostile attitudes toward the U.S., my experience with the region (I have been to Egypt eight times and we have done extensive polling in the Middle East for more than 10 years) makes me feel we can improve our standing with Egyptians and be a seen allies in a new, more democratic nation. I recall a conversation three years ago with a diplomat from a Middle Eastern nation who said of Arabs that “we love America. It’s the U.S. we have a problem with.”
The data is from a July 2010 poll Zogby International conducted for the University of Maryland.
On the U.S.: 85% had an unfavorable attitude toward the U.S., 87% had no confidence in the U.S., 92% named the U.S. as one of two nations that are the greatest threat to them, only 4% said if they had to live in another country they would choose the U.S. and 52% have an unfavorable opinion of the American people.
On Barack Obama: 61% were hopeful when Obama took office, 61% said he had not met the expectations set in his 2009 speech in Cairo, 60% were discouraged by his Middle East policies and 54% had a negative view of him.
On Israel and Palestinians: 69% said that of all Obama policies they were most disappointed toward Israel and Palestine; 90% named Israel as one of two nations that are the greatest threat to them and Egyptians were split as to whether there would ever be lasting peace between Israel and Palestinians.
On the role of clergy in government: 65% agreed with a statement that “clergy must play a greater role in our political system.”
On Iran: 86% say Iran has a right to pursue its nuclear program, 56% agree Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons and 79% say it would be positive if Iran acquired nuclear arms.
On Iraq: 57% said the U.S. role in Iraq was the issue most central issue in their assessment of Obama administration Middle East policy and 75% said the Iraqi people were worse off due to the war.
Our standing with Egyptians was better after the 9/11 attacks, but worsened after Iraq War, and it hit bottom after revelations about U.S. military behavior at the Abu Ghraib prison. Iraq will hopefully recede as an issue, but our support of Israel will remain very unpopular with Egyptians. Opinion of the U.S. is bound to worsen if the people’s insurrection against the Mubarak government turns out badly for them.
If they succeed, it is unlikely a new Egyptian government and the military (the nation’s most stable and enduring institution) will reject continued U.S. aid. We would have a great opportunity to restore Egyptian confidence in the U.S. Let’s hope that will be the outcome.
fyi says:
February 6, 2011 at 12:21 pm
The doctors of religion – especially the scholars of the shariah – will say what they feel to be right on a given matter. Whether its accepted or not is for individuals belivers to decide. On most of these issues of the shariah there is difference of oppinions (itkhilaf) – one cannot blame one who follows a scholars opinion if he/she chooses NOT to follow it. This is the problem of Salafism/Wahabism – they cannot accept this principle hence making them see everything black and white and ultimately becoming very nihilistic.
I will give you an example, that some wrote regarding the scholars of Egypts response to the current crisis that someone mentioned on another site – PLEASE see the nuances in all this:
Sheikh Ali Goma, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, after Mubaraks speech that he will retire in September, told all the protestors that they should stop protesting and they should all go home:
“I greet President Mubarak who offered dialogue and responded to the demands of the people. Going against legitimacy is forbidden (Haram). This is an invitation for chaos. We support stability. What we have now is a blind chaos leading to a civil war. I call on all parents to ask their children to stay home.”
This is from one of the most senior scholars of Egypt – telling people to go home. He is a very inluential scholar who is highly regarded and is very knowledgable – NOW CONTRAST THIS with:
Shaykh Abda maqsoods, another famous scholar and preacher, who supports the proesters and their demands:
http://www.suhaibwebb.com/society/international/shaykh-abdul-maqsoods-ruling-on-the-events-in-egypt/
Shaykh Ahmad Taha Rayyan, who was twice offered the post of Grand Mufti – which he turned down, a very senior scholar, highly respected, and is the head of the Malikis (madhab) in Egypt, a Khalwati Sufi, supports the protestors and their demand for change.
Things are never black and white and scholars will be scholars.
Now going to the bitthe challenges that modernity, neo-paganism, neo-secularism,atheism, poses to Islam and Muslims – yes these challeges needs to be taken head on, but in my opinion this will be taken by Muslim scholars in the West rather then from the East (hey if they do, then mumtaz!) – for e.g. look at the works of Prof. T.J Winters (a.k.a. Abdal Hakim Murad), Syed al-Attas, Seyyed H. Nasr, Martin Lings, et al.
There is profound changes taking place – and this Ummah, no matter what, still has the prayers of the Prophet behind it and the Divine rahma (mercy) to see it through whatever storms that comes its way – remember, when Prophet Muhammad met Prophet Moses, in Jerusalem, during the Miraj, Moses, prayed to be part of the Ummah of Muhammad as he could see the great benefit and nobility this Ummah had.
ALSO fyi and James, in the previous thread you both wrote some important things re: US Grand Strategy and Missle Defence, I am going to response and expand on that, but due to lack of time I havent but will so please bare with me.
Rehmat — a fundamental problem of Judaism is that there ARE no “intellectual leaders,” or leaders of any other kind.
The only leadership Judaism has ever known has been wealth-based. Before Nebuchadnezzar exiled the “cream” of the Hebrews of Jerusalem to cosmopolitan Babylon, Hebrews were a rag-tag lot and Jerusalem was a freckle on the arm of the universe. The exiled Hebrews thrived in Babylon, absorbing culture and enjoying the leisure to dabble in all the richness Babylon had to offer. Far less than half of the Hebrews who had been exiled agreed to return to Jerusalem, after Cyrus conquered Babylon and paid the way for Hebrews to return to their Zion.
The majority of Yehud who remained in Babylon engaged in merchant activities in that wealthy city, and soom became wealthy themselves. Dr. David Ruderman states in his lecture series on Jewish history that Babylon became the center of Jewish authority and learning, and of interpretation of how Jewish laws were to be enforced. But it was not rabbis who interpreted the rules, it was wealthy merchants and bankers who dominated the Yehud community and, for a fee, rendered answers to questions on observations and practices. From the time Yehud was aware of itself (which, I would argue, occurred only after the exile to Babylon), authority over Jewish life has been associated with accumulation of wealth; erudition was always a side-show in Jewish life.
Further, according to Israel Shahak, learning that involved anything other than rather mindless pondering over scripture that resulted in Talmud and Mishna — that is, secular learning — was forbidden to most Jews, by their Jewish rabbis, until nearly the 18th century. By that time, Italy had had several universities teaching secular subjects for nearly 700 years. For example, the University of Padua was so highly prized that in the wars between the Italian city states, Padua was considered a premium conquest, precisely for its university. Executive summary: enough of this BS about how brilliant Jews are and how scholarly they have always been. Proof of the pudding: Jefferson wrote a declaration of religious freedom and built a nation around it; Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat and 200 million people are still dying to obtain their autonomy.
John H. wrote (Feb 5, 10:37)
“The real problem with Iran is the example it sets of defiant independence from the US agenda.”
yup.
That came front and center a few days before the 2007 “peace” conference in Annapolis. The Israel Project hosted a panel discussion on why the conference should be about excluding/punishing/demonizing/hating/lying about Iran.
David Wurmser reached back to the gates of vienna or some damn distant historical reference point, to draw the conclusion that Muslims wanted to reimpose a caliphate on the world (zionists so often project upon others their own urgencies. –My brother-in-law once asked his wife to get an aspirin for him; “I have a headache,” he told her. She went to the other room, got an aspirin from the medicine cabinet, poured a glass of water, took the aspirin and returned to husband feeling much better. Irrelevant but funny). –Wurmser argued that “Iran with nukes is not the problem.” The problem is that Iran is self-confident, and it pokes the other Muslim states to stand up for themselves and assert their own rights and dignity. THAT is the problem that Iran presents to US and Israel.
Israel and the US do their best to keep the Arab and Persian Islamic states — and Sunnis and Shiites — in conflict, lest all the Islamic states unite and force Israel to either recognize that it’s in “Rome” and really needs to do as the Romans do, rather than have this transplanted organ demand that the entire Islamic world surrounding it conform to zionist demands and “recognize” the “Jewish” state. Khomeini laid that challenge in the region when the shah was deposed in 1979: Khomeini called upon the Islamic states to unite in the name of Islam and claim the sovereignty that had been denied to them since the breakup of the Ottoman empire.
The US quickly incited a war against Iran to derail or at least defer the possibility of Islamic unity.
Reza Esfandiari
The likes of you should be reminded that if you put people to jail for their beliefs, if you suppress freedom of speech, if you have people killed because they were demanding change, then you are a dictator. Doesn’t matter what the Constitution says.
Empty, thank you for your comment re: EIPR
Empty – ”
the fact remains that the longer the self-proclaimed intellectual leaders of Judaism delay confronting the challenges that Israel face today, the more damage they will be inflicting on Jewish communities,” Gilad Atzmon
Israeli mother who refuses to shut-up
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/09/05/israeli-mother-who-refuses-to-shut-up/
fyi-
It is my belief that one major — perhaps THE major goal of zionism is to achieve financial dominance over as many nation states as can be gobbled up. I call the zionist form of capitalism “predatory capitalism.” It is different from the form of capitalism that most of the people of United States think they are talking about when they say “capitalism.”
In his biography of the Rothschilds, Niall Ferguson place this quotation at the very beginning of the first volume:
“A foreigner would be apt to think that [the Rothschilds] were bankers if anyone was. But this only illustrates the essential difference between our English notions of banking and the continental. . . .
Messrs Rothschild are immense capitalists, having, doubtless, much borrowed money in their hands. But they do not take 100 pounds payable on demand, and pay it back in cheques of 5 pounds each, and that is our English banking. The borrowed money they have is in large sums, borrowed for terms more or less long. English bankers deal with an aggregate of small sums, all of which are repayable on short notice, or on demand. And the way the two employ their money is different also. A foreigner thinks “an Exchange business” –that is, the buying and selling bills on foreign countries — a main part of banking. . . But the mass of English country bankers . . .would not know how carry through a great “Exchange operation” . . . They would as soon think of turning silk into merchants. The Exchange trade is carried on by a small and special body of foreign bill-brokers, of whom Messr Rothschild are the greatest. . . [The] family are not English bankers, either by the terms on which they borrow money, or the mode in which they employ it.” –this was written by Victorian financial journalist Walter Bagehot in 1873.
I think it is fair to label what Bagehot refers to as “English” banking, “Adam Smith” capitalism; America’s founders were contemporaries of Adam Smith, whose “Wealth of Nations” was published in 1776. Smith was also a moral philosopher, and wrote extensively on Christian ethics, and their relationship to capitalism, before the publication of Wealth of Nations. {alert: Smith would probably not have done well in the Twitter world} One can surmise that the form of capitalism that Americans subscribed to in Adam Smith capitalism was based on an ethical system influenced by Christianity.
My very, very rudimentary understanding of Sharia laws concerning finance suggest to me that it is more closely related to Adam Smith capitalism than to predatory capitalism.
What do you think?
fyi,
RE: “the fact remains that the longer the self-proclaimed intellectual leaders of Islam delay confronting the challenges that Muslims face today, the more damage they will be inflicting on Islam.”
No disagreement there. I agree with you 100%.
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Dr. Khalizad is only an articulate and genial expositor of the collective position of US strategic thinker.
You could observe the same strategy practiced in numerous American gangster movies.
I wonder if this is a case of Art imitating life or Life imitating Art?
perceived (by Israel)
Castellio,
Let’s follow the money. The site where you got the information is “Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights”. The initiative has (among others), Anna Lindh Foundation as partner (and providing financing). Anna Lindh Foundation began in 2005 by Eromed Partnership. Euromed Partnership is financed by the European Union under Euromed Heritage Program. Euromed Heritage program is a collaborative work with EuropeAid (somewhat of an equivalent to USAid. The agenda of EupropeAid is directly set by the World Bank.
Now, just because these are projects that are funded by entities known for neo-colonial projects, does that automatically make the argument null and void? My answer would be not necessarily but let’s see what they actually promote that is a direct contrast to and meant to undermine the very foundation of the culture.
From the “Vision” segment, I would like to extract the following:
responsibilities and duties that result from the individual’s belonging to his/her community and State should affirm, not destroy, the individual’s capacity to make choices and maintain independence as a free entity. Each member of society deserves respect for her or his personal dignity and integrity.
So, here, they have juxtaposed “the individual’s capacity to make choices and maintain independence as a free entity” with “Each member of society deserves respect for her or his personal dignity and integrity.” Who can argue with personal dignity and respect? Until, of course, you come to see “how” it’s being used to implement what. In Turkey, for example, they used this guise for decades to fight against policies that ban second hand smoking in public places (as it was used in the U.S. for decades) under the guise of non-smokers interfering with the right of smokers to exercise their “freedom”.
They use such fancy-looking “Visions” to replace more organic social safeguards with newer constraints and limitations (often harsher and socially isolated and less organic and humane) within which an “individualized agent” makes decisions with many-fold more deleterious outcomes.
fyi,
If Israel had pereived Iran under the Shah as a threat, US arms sales etc to Iran would not have happened. Israel was a huge factor in Washington’s attitude toward Iran.
fyi,
I think the way forward is for more exposure of the degree to which people like Zalmay Khalilzad grow rich offering spurious “strategic thinking” that essentially is cover for idiotic squandering of trillions of dollars, by the US, on useless or unnecessary weapons, foreign troop deployments, etc etc. This is the reason I called Khalilzad a whore of the armaments manufacturers (and the Israel lobby).
Most Americans have scarcely a clue about what has been going on for many years now.
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:43 pm
In 1979, US followed Nixon’s Doctrine of strong local powers to oppose USSR in the Cold War (Tito, the Shah of Iran, Suharto)
I do not think Israel was germaine to US attitudes towards Iran.
After the end of the Cold War (the end of the Peace of Yalta) US did not need these local (aspiring) hegemons and per the Khalizad Strategy set out to get rdi of them.
I suspect that US would have tried to destroy the Shah of Iran also after the end of the Cold War had the Islamic Revolution in Iran not done so already.
Once the current US difficulties are passed, US-EU Axis will resume their march to war with Iran (per Khalizad Doctrine). They may even go so far as using their enormous economic leverage against Turkey to become the spear-head of their war.
Islamic Iran has to nuclearize rapidly to survive – there is no other way, unfortunately.
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:40 pm
I honestly thought it possible for US-Iran relations to be improved; like many other Iranians and Americans.
After reading Dr. Khalizad’s matter-of-fact description of US Grand Strategy and vetting it against US action since the end of peace of Yalta; I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that I was a fool. That, in fact, Mr. Khamenei – in spite of his short-comings – has been essentially correct.
So now I think with Richard Steven Hack that only disasters and more disasters will change US Grand Strategy. Whether those disasters precede the US-EU Axis war against Islamic Iran or after that, I do not know. To a certain exctent, it is in God’s hands.
fyi,
Do we agree that the US did not regard a strong Iran as a problem, back in the 1970s, because Israel did not object? If the Israel lobby had seen a strong Iran as a problem, the equation for Washington would have been markedly different.
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:25 pm
Thank you for your kind words.
I think the urgency of reform has not yet impressed itself fully on the Doctors of Religion in Islam. They still see their role primarily as guardians of a semi-sacred (some would even go so far as to call it sacred) heritage that needs protection rather than change.
And while I find the pace and quality of change among the Shia thinkers to be very much less than the demands of the times we live in; that pace is positively rapid compared to the glacial rigidity among Sunni thinkers.
There is, in my opinion, an enormous amount of spiritual hunger all over the world: in the Orient, in Africa, and even in Europe and North America.
But this spiritual hunger is not going to be satisfied by those who find God’s greatest gifts to mankind to consist of the stipulation of Laws governing how to wash one’s hand after defecation.
fyi,
What you in effect are saying is that it is necessary for the Israel lobby to continue to wreak havoc with the national interests of the American people, in order to inflict such severe damage on the American people that the idiotic notions of Zalmay Khalilzad will go into the garbage can.
The memoirs of Anthony Eden offer some interesting background. Sir Anthony was British foreign secretary in late 1951, when as he recalled:
“The position I had to face in Egypt was more forbidding than anything that was happening in Persia. I was convinced that there the situation had been made worse by some unimaginative mishandling, which I believed could be rememdied. In Egypt the outlook was much darker; everything seemed rotten in the state. Food prices were rising sharply and income tax had been increased upon all but those best able to pay.”
James Canning says: February 6, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Yes, it is.
For without sucg decline, she will continue pursuing the Grand Strategy that Dr. Khalilzad has outlined.
Again, one man’s disaster is to be another’s salvation.[Russian Proverb]
fyi,
Good points (re: need for Islamic thinking to adapt to current knowledge). I think it is only within the past 100 years that the Roman Catholic Church did not regard it as a mortal sin for a Catholic to read the astronomical observations of Galileo.
Castellio,
Thanks for the link to Ira Glunts’ excellent piece on mondoweiss. Yes, US policy toward Egypt indeed is “all about Israel”. And how much has the US taxpayer spent on military aid to Egypt, to protect Israel? $50 billion? Much if not most of this money went into the hands of armaments manufacturers in the US.
Empty says: February 6, 2011 at 1:02 pm
You can lull yourself into intellectual slumber by reciting as many fallacies as you wish.
However, the fact remains that the longer the self-proclaimed intellectual leaders of Islam delay confronting the challenges that Muslims face today, the more damage they will be inflicting on Islam.
Iranian@Iranian,
It is not necessary for the US to decline, in order for Iran to become more open; the US merely needs to exercise good judgment in its Middle East foreign policy. Of course, asking for good judgment in US Middle East foreign policy is soemthing of a stretch if the Israel lobby is determined to prevent it.
fyi,
In that case, all the fallacies that I stated remain and I add to them the fallacy of appeal to emotions.
Empty says: February 6, 2011 at 12:43 pm
I am suggesting that neither the Corpus of Islamic Legal precepts nor the experts in its jurisprudence are capable of facing the challenges of Godless Modernity and Neo-paganism.
I am excepting the late Mr. Khomeini and late Allameh Tabatabie from this group.
[Mr. Khomeini to another Ayatollah: "The way you sepak we all need to go back and live in the tents."
In response to a letter concerning Oshin: "...and don't listen to the words of stupid mullahs."]
I only supplied examples.
Today, Mr. Ahmadinejad, once again, sent the Experimental Law for the Islamic Punishment, to the executive branch to be applied, yet again experimentally.
Isn’t 23-years of experimental application of Islamic Punishments not sufficient to admit their failures?
RE: transplant, bull’s eye fyi and fiorangela.
RE: “More on why Islamic Law, as it is today, cannot stand.”
&
RE: “These people, in my judgment, cannot be intellectual leaders of Islam as it faces the twin challenges of Godless Modernity and Neo-paganism.”
fyi,
Are you suggesting that “Islamic Law” today, is one solid palpable entity limited only to the interpretations by those individuals you just named? If your answer is yes, you’re committing false generalization (by negligent omission, I hope for your sake), as well as a fallacy of over simplification. If your answer is no, then you’re committing an inductive fallacy.
Perhaps everyone knows this site, but I hadn’t:
http://eipr.org/en
From it:
The Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR) is an independent Egyptian human rights organization that was established in 2002 to promote and defend the personal rights and freedoms of individuals.
Vision
The EIPR was established to complement the work of Egyptian human rights groups by adopting as its mandate, and focus of concern, a group of rights and freedoms that are closest to the human-being: his/her body, privacy and house. These rights often are ignored or overlooked. We believe that the crucial importance of public and political rights must be grounded in an understanding of the indispensability of full protection for personal rights. EIPR activists share a notion that the individual is not reducible to a mere component of the community or the State. Therefore, responsibilities and duties that result from the individual’s belonging to his/her community and State should affirm, not destroy, the individual’s capacity to make choices and maintain independence as a free entity. Each member of society deserves respect for her or his personal dignity and integrity. Thus, we aim to explore the line between private and public in the lives of individual members of community and society, while realizing the interrelation and interdependence of these two spheres. We also attempt to promote a debate about the State’s legitimate powers and the areas it should not invade while undertaking its legitimate responsibilities to protect people from abuse.
Programs
Right to Health
The EIPR considers the enjoyment of the right to health to be a prerequisite for the enjoyment of other bodily rights. This program promotes and defends people’s right to access to health services, treatment and essential medicines and freedom from discrimination based on health status. Other subjects of concern include HIV/AIDS and human rights, the interrelation between health and violence, and reproductive health issues in Egypt.
Freedom of Religion and Belief
The EIPR works to promote and defend the right to freedom of religion and belief in Egypt through research and monitoring, strategic legal interventions and advocacy campaigns. The program is currently addressing three interrelated issues: laws, policies and practices that directly or indirectly discriminate on the ground of religion or belief ; violations by security agencies and prosecutions based on religion or belief; and the response by the state and society to incidents of sectarian tension and violence in Egypt. The program’s flagship Quarterly Reports document and update developments related to freedom of religion and belief in Egypt every three months.
Right to Privacy
This program covers a group of rights that are related to the private lives of individuals, including their rights to secrecy of communications and correspondence, to freedom of religion and belief, to protection of reputation, and to adequate housing; in addition to sexual and reproductive rights of women and men.
Violence and Bodily Integrity
This program focuses on the protection of the individual’s body from all forms of assault. The program pays special attention to fighting physical and sexual violence in the family, especially against women and children, as well as the eradication of widespread corporal punishment of school children. The program attempts to develop a rights-based approach that outlines the responsibility of the State towards eradicating sexual violence by non-State actors.
two refrains have been -peated and repeated:
1. “It’s important not to let the Egypt revolution go the way of the Iran revolution (1979) — we don’t want another Iran.”
2. “It is to the credit of the Egyptian army that it has not turned on the protesters and brutally gunned them down, as happened in Tianamen Square AND IN IRAN (2009).”
Refrain #1 belies a mind stuck in a time warp: even if the US has not, Iran has moved on from 1979, or haven’t you noticed? And if, as stated, it’s the Islamic element of Iranian governance that is a problem, deal with it. Egypt is at least 80% Muslim; it’s not going to be a sanitized secular culture. Neither is Iran; neither are Egypt or Iran rabidly fundamentalist Islamic cultures.
Refrain #2.: Just what are the statistics, anyway? How many people died in protests in Tianamen Square? How many died in Iran in 2009 protests? How many died in Tahrir Square?
Aren’t these the sorts of questions that journalists are supposed to ask and answer and double-check before they publish?
I’m not a fan of Wikipedia, but it’s useful in finding basic information — should any journalists be so inclined.
TIANAMEN SQUARE: per Wikipedia: The movement lasted seven weeks after Hu’s death on 15 April. In early June, the People’s Liberation Army moved into the streets of Beijing with troops and tanks and cleared the square with live fire. The exact number of deaths is not known. According to an analysis by Nicholas D. Kristof of The New York Times, “The true number of deaths will probably never be known, and it is possible that thousands of people were killed without leaving evidence behind. But based on the evidence that is now available, it seems plausible that about fifty soldiers and policemen were killed, along with 400 to 800 civilians.” Globe and Mail correspondent Jan Wong placed the death toll at approximately 3,000, based on initial reports by the Red Cross and analysis on the crowd size, density, and the volume of firing.”
IRAN: According to Wiki, the Iranian state claims that 36 protesters died; four or five persons were executed by the state for reasons related to the protests. The Mousavi camp claims that 72 people died in protests.
Protesters were injured or killed by
“Police and the Basij, a paramilitary group [who]suppressed both peaceful demonstrating and rioting using batons, pepper spray, sticks and, in some cases, firearms. The Iranian government has confirmed the deaths of 36 people during the protests, while unconfirmed reports by supporters of Mousavi allege that there have been 72 deaths (twice as many) in the three months following the disputed election.”
EGYPT: There is no Wikipedia entry for the Egyptian protests in Tahrir Square. This report, from a Jakarta reporter, mentions that “pro-Mubarak forces were armed with clubs and razors and riding horses and a camel,” and that gunfire was heard. Several sources have reported to US that they have personal knowledge of at least one*** and perhaps three deaths. But otherwise, says the Jakarta reporter (on Feb. 3, 2011,)
“There is no reliable way of knowing right now how many have been killed and injured in Egypt’s turmoil. Before Wednesday’s violence, Navi Pillay, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights, said the death toll might be as many as 300 but acknowledged that she was basing that on “unconfirmed” reports.” :http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/commentary/holding-ground-against-thugs-with-clubs-at-tahrir-square/420641
*** :http://mondoweiss.net/2011/02/my-friend-mahmoud-maher-a-doctor-was-killed-at-tahrir-square.html
As a baseline, Israel maintained its average of killing 1 Palestinian every other day in January
The US says they are sending the warships and the Marines in the event they need to evacuate U.S. citizens, but note that they also say also that in case they have to defend the Egypt-Israeli Peace Deal . . . we know that Netanyahu has just said that Egypt is not ready for democracy. So against who will the US guns be turned here should they begin firing? UPDATE: Cheney calls Mubarak a “good friend” and an”ally of U.S.”
:http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/02/american-warships-heading-to-egypt/
Irshad:
More on why Islamic Law, as it is today, cannot stand.
Ayatollah Golpayegani, Ayatollah Gorgani, and Ayatollah Zanjani have stated, quite recently, that it is forbidden (haram) for female Muslim athletes to participate in international sporting events whereby they mix with the members of the opposite sex and they are viewed by those who are not mahram.
On the other hand, Grand Ayatollah Shirazi had stated that if the female athletes conform to the standards of Islam [I do not know what this means, personally] then they could go.
These people, in my judgement, cannot be intellectual leaders of Islam as it faces the twin challenges of Godless Modernity and Neo-paganism.
Fiorangela says: February 6, 2011 at 11:28 am
Your metaphor is interesting in that organ transplant requires continulus application of immune-suppresseant drugs to prvent rejection of the transplanted organ. Over time, the receipient develops cancer as his immune system has been weakened over time.
In a funeral some time in 1950s for the victims of the Israelis killed by Arabs, Moshe Dayan stated something to the effect that Israeli should not expect anything else since they had taken the land from its rightful owners by force. And fruther that every tree that they (the Israelis) plant needs to be defended by a machine gun etc.
Fiorangela,
Interesting and rather appropriate use of the transplant metaphor.
your thinking processes are amazing, Empty.
re medical technologies as a hallmark of “modernity.”
Modern medicine has come close to mastering organ transplantation.
When planning a transplant, it’s of vital importance to ensure that the match between the donor and the host is as close as possible. The host will reject an alien organ incorporated into its body; some levels of transplant rejection are to be expected and can be overcome with various therapies, until the two elements, donor organ and host body, adapt to each other and function holistically.
From the beginning, zionist project intended to attach an Ashkenazi Jewish-run German-modeled culture, using Jewish “tissue” harvested from Eastern Europe and pre-existing Arab-Jewish population centers, to a small piece of land at the ‘hinge’ of the Arab, Islamic world.
The goal of the Ashkenazi Jews, based upon the writing of Budapest-born Jew with Christian proclivities Theodore Herzl, and Odessa-born, Italian-inspired Vladimir Jabotinsky, was NOT to attempt to match the transplanted organ to the host culture but to create a culture on a western in that hinge of land; keep it at all time separate and distinct from its Eastern host, but at the same time, impose upon the host region the manufactured culture of the transplanted organ.
What could possibly go wrong.
It is worth reminding the likes of Alireza that Khamenei’s powers are limited by the constitution. He does not head the executive branch – the elected president does. Neither does he have any influence on the legislative branch which is the domain of the elected Majlis-e-Shura.
Moreover, he himself is chosen by an electoral college which can also remove him. He is not above the law but is subject to it like every other citizen.
Is the Pope a “dictator” because he is not directly elected by all Catholics?
Persian Gulf says: February 6, 2011 at 12:09 am
The meaning of dynamics of modernity is the worship of collective powers of man with all ingenuity and rationality and cunning that can be mustered.
The one side of this Godless dynamics, the more crude and brutal one, collapsed in 1991. The other is still marching on.
Abstracts on some 2011 statistics for US (based on 2010 census):
;http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/income_expenditures_poverty_wealth.html
By the way, the information is not about “people” any more but “Consumer Units”…..progressive societies my ass.
hans,
While in some countries it might be appropriate to use food price index when evaluating societies’ economic discontent, in the U.S. you should use drug/medication/”health-care”(i.e. disease-care) price index exactly because of some of the contributing factors you named (e.g., HFCS, Trans-fats, fast “food”, etc.). In the US, because of “disease care” model, that which lands a family on the street (if they are not already there because of evictions and defaults on mortgages) is, and continue to be, the “health”care cost.
On the index of food costs relative to income; Egypt and Tunisia are high. For this reason, they revolted when Bernanke dropped a money bomb on world markets (to try and force China to revalue) and prices doubled. Low on the list is the USA. Why? American’s food is subsidized three ways: 1) oil is a prime ingredient in food when you add the cost of fertilizer and the US simply invades countries, kills people, and takes their oil to keep the price down. 2) Farm subsidies in the corn patch – a leftover from 1930′s FDR bailouts – are still in play – but applied to the mammoth agri-businesses that have swallowed the industry and turned it into behemoth kleptocratic cornapocalypse. 3) Food is now 60% HFC syrup (High Fructose Corn Syrup). Chicken at KFC for example is mostly made of corn when you consider the chickens eat corn and the product is injected with corn syrup and then deep fried in corn oil. Net, net, when the price of real food goes up, Americans don’t cry so much because only 20% or so of their income goes to food, unlike in other countries where it’s more like 80%. Add to this an observation made by junk food junkie Joe Weisenthal over at BusinessInsider; most of the food America eats is not food at all, but ‘processed food’ made mostly of petroleum derivatives and cardboard. Yes, America can breathe easy – the rocketing food price will not hurt their food stamp allotment – because it’s not food they’re eating.
Buy Silver, Crash JP Morgan
The article below is worth reading, really.
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/publications/comment/9560-likeminded-successors-the-demonization-of-islamic-opposition-in-the-coming-revolutions
It looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but they want to call it a chicken.
Massive population-level movements may initially have some outside sparks, or triggers if you will, but they will not be sustained over time if they are not connected to deeply-rooted grievances as well as deeply-rooted aspirations. Attempts at quelling them are all temporary and will lead to more violent eruptions sooner or later. If, as some are suggesting, the Egyptian revolution initiated by outsiders for the purpose of creating short-term “steam release” for a longer-term and more sustained control over the population, it was indeed a miscalculation on their part. Of course, that is not surprising because the arrogant powers have more practice at miscalculations and are, therefore, better at it.
A lot more blood will be shed and US/UN/Israel will have no other choice but to officially enter Sinai desert and be made available for counter attacks.
Mapping Roger’s Bad Dream
A thing that always strikes me is how different Aljazeera English is from Aljazeera Arabic. Aljazeera English is quite pro-western in outlook, while Aljazeera Arabic is much more critical. It’s as if they were two completely separate news channels. Very strange.
Fancy that. Note to self: proofread before posting.
Onto emerging themes……When I come across statements equating that which is modern with that which is rational, I immediately think, okay, here is a statement that confuses these two concepts (and understandably so since billions are spent to make these concepts seem alike). When I see statements insisting on equating the two concepts, I think, okay, here is a statement that is not just rooted in confusion but it might also be a symptom of diseases of self-assured knowledge and arrogance (تکبر) which is Satanic and misleads.
To date, there has never been a unified and agreed upon definition for modernity. Some have tried to equate modernity with urbanizations, industrialization, free market system, and liberal societies. However, critical arguments are raised against all these linkages. Curious minds could explore the literature about modernization and urbanization theories, sociology of industrialization, etc.
There was a time (still is, thanks to the efforts of transnational tobacco companies), for example, that a woman smoking cigarettes was considered modern. Now, it’s considered plain dumb (and rightfully so as it’s a product that kills when used as directed). Once upon a time, when the colonies were advancing in other people’s land and exploiting the indigenous populations, the colonizers were mostly covered up and the colonized were mostly naked (in some parts but not all). At that time, “backward” meant “nakedness,” as the colonizers referred to it in their own books. The referred to the local populations, for example, as “naked savages.” To dress modestly was to be “modern” and “advanced”. All of a sudden, when they decided to “bear it all” and put things on display, nakedness became “modern” and to dress modestly was equated to being “backward”.
In fact, it has reached a point that, in today’s world, industries built upon commodification of human body (more women than men but men are catching up as well) is, by far, the most profitable industries on the plant followed by their close cousins, military industries. If one were to extract two major themes from all that is conceived nowadays to be “modern,” one would be limited to two overarching categories: sex and violence. Even the application of the most advanced forms of technology in medicine (that is supposed to be a healing art) takes one of two (and sometimes both) of these forms. From plastic surgery to radical hysterectomy; from orgasm-enhancing reconstructions to penal implants; from “pink pills” to Viagra; from chemo and radiation therapies to “whatever-ectomies”; from antibiotics (which literally means “against life) to pesticides, herbicides, insecticides, and whatever-else-icides. In the name of rationality and wisdom, they are injecting millions of young (as young as 8 or 9) girls with Gardasil (with new ones developed for boys) with known short- and long-term side effects courtesy of the drug companies’ wining and dining of a bunch of self-serving greedy FDA staff and physicians. Parents who submit to this insane approach are “rational” and “modern.” Those who don’t are “irrational,” “backward,” and “ignorant.” [Physicians’ and medical establishment’s cowardly and self-serving submission to these “pressures” is extremely disturbing and particularly appalling because of their position in society as so-called “expert” authority/power/influence].
So-called “modernity” is many things if we were to examine it by the proxies that have been attributed to it. Rationality couldn’t possibly be one of them (unless of course we are concocting a different definition for rationality).
“[B]y any standard economic measure, society is regressing not progressing. It is poorer, not richer. And this backwards step in our wealth might be a backwards step in our wellbeing too.”
–From J.E. Stiglitz, Nobel Laureate Economist [Ref: Lancet, the Stiglitz Commission report, 2009]
‘The Cross of Bethlehem’ – Story of an Israeli on the run
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/the-cross-of-bethlehem-story-of-an-israeli-on-the-run/
Roger says:
February 6, 2011 at 2:58 am
and those who think his ideas are unrealistic –
I don’t.
It may be true that the protest erupted from the people. But firstly, the purpose of the sanctions on Iran was to push the Iranian economy and people into just the state of outrage so that they would protest and overthrow their government.
Secondly, as in Iraq, when starving the people into a revolt didn’t work, another form or “Shock and Awe” was needed. US has had the Shock and Awe plan on the shelf for years, ever since US and Great Britain bombed Dresden. The starving-into-protest, or, failing that, bombing into chaos, has the same purpose — induce chaos, but that is only the prelude.
Third, chaos is not the goal, just the means to totally destabilize the people whereupon the pre-arranged Jerry Bremer-figure will take charge with a plan for taking over the target state’s government, army, economy. Israel plans to benefit — those stripes on the banner of the zionist crime gang stand for the River Jordan and the Nile River. Israel intends to control the land between the rivers.
“If you will it it is no dream.”
I agree with Hans, however, this may be difficult to achieve. If the revolution could get the Army on its side, perhaps Mubarak and Suleiman could be arrested and tried for their crimes, and their assets seized for the benefit of the country. But we shall see. This is probably the main reason Mubarak does not step down, because he would then be vulnerable to being arrested. Dictators tend to lose the thrall they keep their minions in once they are seen to be vulnerable. After that, if they can’t bribe their way out, they usually end up dead.
But frankly it should be the goal of the revolution to kill Mubarak and Suleiman and as many of the other high ranking members of his operation, if nothing else as a warning to those who would take their place. It can be done via the law or via mob violence, but it should be done.
As the Situationists said, mob violence is precisely the hot antidote to the chill brutality of oppression.
Or as V put it, “People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.”
Best way to make them afraid is: “From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots. – Thomas Jefferson.
Hans, Roger, Alireza… you all watching too many movies?
Bush Cancels Visit To Switzerland Due To Threat Of Torture Prosecution, Rights Groups Say
:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/05/bush-switzerland-torture_n_819175.html
Regarding Mubarak why does that lying thieving murderous tyrant get to “step down”? It’s time he PAID for the 30 years of oppression he was responsible for. Did HE allow others to “step down” No way, he just slaughtered them and their families like sheep. All of you courageous Egyptians…. FINISH IT!!!!! KILL THE BEAST. Do NOT allow him to get away with his life, he OWES you at LEAST his life.
Roger
I assure you, those service personnel who are assigned to clean this mess, right now for lack options they are praying for the genie to go back in bottle, if I were in their shoes; I wished my Christmas vacation had never ended. For the US policy in the region, this is freestyle downhill on the bumps there is no upside to this.
Ayatollah Khamenei is highly popular and Iran is more open than its neighbors, despite constant American and western interference. As the US declines Iran will become more open.
Alireza
Nonsense.
Roger: “wouldn’t it make sense to use previously contingent “back-pocket” contacts among Egypt’s dissidents to start an uprising instead of being surprised by one?”
No. Because it’s not that easy to control an uprising once it begins.
There are a lot of people running around on Web sites proclaiming this theory. You didn’t think it up. There are people claiming Israel is behind it all, others claiming Iran is behind it all, and a lot of people claiming the CIA is behind it all.
There is ZERO evidence for all these notions, and it comes directly from the mouths of the protesters.
This is a revolution in which no one is in charge – and those are the best revolutions, at least provided the revolutionaries can stay the course and not let some “organizers” or “representatives” get in the way and hijack the thing for someone’s agenda.
You should become familiar with the Situationists and their theories about revolution.
Kooshy:
Greetings from Sonij
I’m just raising a hypothesis which I have no idea may be how close to or how far to the truth. But suppose – for the sake of argument – that a Western government intelligence assessment that was taken seriously claimed that Egypt was ripe for an uprising – wouldn’t it make sense to use previously contingent “back-pocket” contacts among Egypt’s dissidents to start an uprising instead of being surprised by one?
I just hate to think that the intelligent contributors to the Race For Iran forum could perhaps be unwittingly cheering for the success of a CIA/MI6/Israel project.
Roger: There are a lot of easier ways to remove Mubarak without starting a massive street protest that threatens the entire government system in Egypt. The CIA could have just poisoned his ass or had Suleiman execute him in secret (after getting access to his $40 billion, of course), then claim he just died of old age.
This is conspiracy theory at its worst. Every time anything happens, someone starts a conspiracy theory.
Sometimes things are exactly the way they seem to be.
Watch this video: this is what it is.
“we don’t ask anyone for our freedom. we will get our freedom”
:http://www.maxajl.com/?p=4889
Lysander: Concrete jungles are good. The police and the military are hampered there as well, if things turn violent.
I wouldn’t suggest they try to rush the palace, just surround it with a sea of people. If the government forces do open fire on them to some degree, that will just spur the people to be even more determined.
Right now the government is trying to wait them out. Allegedly Mubarak is trying to get the banks and businesses back open, so the people will have to report to work.
As for traffic disruption, this is good. Either the mass of the people in Cairo join the protest, or they will sell out the revolution. It’s their choice. This is how revolutions are. The mass of the people must recognize that work, even food, is secondary to freedom. If they fail to stay on the barricades, their revolution will fail, they will be slip up into helpless units again, and arrests and torture will be their fate.
I understand that Arabs have a saying: When you draw your sword against your prince, you must fling the scabbard far away.
Thus it is in revolution.
Fiorangela: “do not be seduced by Bruzonsky”
I have no idea what that means, but in any event I’m not seduced by anyone except hot babes. I merely pointed out that he appears to be a credible source on the influence of the Israel Lobby on the so-called “peace process”. Hardly an endorsement otherwise.
Roger
If you were a US government policy planer, would you take a big risk like that to replace the head of your most important strategic client state? I suspect if your idea for replacing Mubarak, was actually proposed and or implemented by a US government policy planning group, by now if they all are not in Guantanamo they sure are looking for a new assignment somewhere in a hostile state.
Cheers from Yazd
Khamenei is as much a dictator as Mubarak is. Only Mubarak doesn’t claim legitimacy from God.
I guess I should have chosen the alias “Cynic” or “Conspiracy Theorist” instead of Roger. But I would like to present the following What if?”
What if the the US organized the Egyptian uprising? The US reckoned Mubarak is 82 years old and needs to be replaced sooner or later – the same way that the US discovered the Shah had cancer long before the Iranian revolution – and decided to arrange for his replacement under terms that was least troublesome to the US?. And at the same time present it as the advent of true democracy in Egypt. I seem to recall reading an article somewhere – I don’t remember where – that mentioned the US had maintained extensive contacts with Egyptian activists prior to the Egyptian uprising.
I could think of a few reasons why this could be seen as in the US’s ultimate medium-term interest. Especially if events to come reveal that it was possible to “guide” the Egyptian “revolution” into an outcome that was significantly less damaging to the US’s interest than some imaginable alternatives – such as the example of the Iranian revolution. The US “lost” Iran. Perhaps they decided to do better with Egypt by pre-empting an Iranian-style revolution by creating one to their receipe?
Egypt protests: Muslim Brotherhood ‘to join talks’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12375426
fyi says: February 5, 2011 at 11:46 pm
I am not talking about historical predicaments. it’s about a phenomenon at play. it’s an ongoing project. we are talking about the core element that gives meaning to the dynamism of modernity.
Fiorangela: You’ve probably already visited this page, but
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/02/nyt-pulls-back-the-curtain-for-u-s-egypt-is-about-israel.html
Castellio says: February 5, 2011 at 10:55 pm
Show me.
Persian Gulf says: February 5, 2011 at 11:40 pm
Ibn Sina was Rational.
So were the Chinese Thinkers.
Yet, in both cases, their civilization decayed and, in case of China, shattered.
fyi says: February 5, 2011 at 9:48 pm
yes, but the core element is rationality. Godless is the by product of it not the other way around.
FYI, a world without apodictic statements need not be frightening nor ungovernable.
(Leo Strauss, not believing the above, nor being able to believe, claimed that the highest we could do was the “Noble Lie”. He called his philosophy a “sociology of knowledge”. An odd sort of sociology where the relationships between people are irrelevant….)
Paul says: February 5, 2011 at 4:00 pm
Call the Office of the Registrar at the University of Pennsylvanai and they will tell you.
Liz says: February 5, 2011 at 1:53 am
It might be true; but Iranians are also using it to discredit STL.
No one is concerned with Truth here; this is not about righteousness.
Wow, talk about interference. Saying that others will claim that Iran wants to interfere does not make it okay to proceed to interfere. Nice try though.
The movement did not start out of a mosque. The Muslim Brotherhood have been operating for decades, but have consistently failed to arouse the masses into action. In fact, the movement as we know it started out on a facebook page created by a bunch of youth. I do not want to put words into their mouths, unlike Khamenei, but I believe that they are striving for a free, democratic Egypt. Their facebook page actually vehemently refutes any affiliation with specific political parties or ideologies. Trust the mullahs to jump onto the bandwagon and hijack another revolution!
And, in terms of diplomacy, this speech was a massive gamble that I do not think will pay off. Put it this way: if the Egyptian people fail to overthrow the current ruling elite, then Khamenei really did just put the final nail in the coffin in terms of the already terminal Iran-Egypt relations.
Persian Gulf says: February 5, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Modern does not mean just rational.
It means Godless and Rational.
Raad, Thanks a lot, that was very informative. You mentioned a simmering period. Would you say that during Iran’s revolution there were periods when the protests were suppressed and it looked like the Shah had survived?
RSH,
You are right. But I don’t know how the opposition can do it. I’ve been to Cairo a few times. I don’t know the city really well, but for the most part it is a concrete jungle. There really aren’t many places that can accommodate a mass of people, especially if they have to camp there. And I think the soldiers around the palace WILL fire upon demonstrators if they try to enter. I suppose a massive rush can get through, but that would be like a WWI mass infantry charge against machine gun fire. A lot to ask from even the hardest of hardcore protesters. OTOH, multiple mini protests of 500-1000 people held all over town for brief periods of time could be effective. Especially now while riot police are off the streets.
What I worry about Tahrir is that it disrupts the main business district, which has remained closed and massively disrupts traffic. I think the protesters enjoy widespread support all over Cairo, but after a while, they can get the blame for all the disruption, whether its their fault or not.
What I would recommend is that protesters at Tahrir invite local shopkeepers to reopen and then try to buy some of their supplies from them and also they should try to encourage regular shoppers to come to the square. Furthermore, if there is a way to allow traffic to pass through, they should do it. That would alleviate the inconvenience caused to others and also allow them to get their message out to more people. If the Baltagis they to take advantage of the situation, they can re-close the square and be able to put the blame on the government.
I can’t recall the exact layout of Tahrir, so don’t know about the logistics of all that.
My mom and I are in contact with a number of relatives back home. They say morale is still very high, the protesters enjoy broad support among the rest of Cairo and plenty of people not directly protesting are supplying food, water, etc to the people in the square. There is a fear that the government will stop people from supplying them, though. Apparently, some protesters are taking shifts so that some can leave and take care of personal matters and return later. But I guess some others are staying for the long haul.
Richard Steven Hack (w/ thanks, also, to Castellio & James) –
do not be seduced by Bruzonsky
James Zogby’s compilation of stupid comments by American politicians regarding Egypt is
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-zogby/politics-and-nonsense-on_b_819067.html
Lysander,
On your question about where we go from here, these are my recollections of 78-79 revolution:
a) the Iranian revolution ignited in Jan/Feb 78, it rumbled in the provincial cities till about August and then burst into Tehran proper
b) the Tehran watershed was a massacre in Jaleh ca end August in a square with unknown -but thought to be significant – casualties
c) the simmering phase – which I suspect Egypt will go to now – was lead by students. University campuses, secondary schools, polytechnics etc. There was no school from ca mid September till after the overthrow of the regime
d) when the kids go to revolution, their parents generally follow. Every week-fortnight there mega demonstrations holding 1-2 million (no exaggeration) demonstrators
4) huge amount of pamphlets by the various parties and in the autumn of 78 we had the most free media I have seen any where (Iran or the West). This was a big factor in getting a lot of people on the fence to become active. Words of Khomeini were spread on cassettes which proliferated.
5) civil disobedience – refineries were shut and oil was just stopped flowing in one of the coldest winters on record. Question for Egypt is what is Suez going to do now
6) people were sure of what they wanted ….. Shah must Go ……. and it included everyone, students, professionals, mums, pops and grandmas, intellectuals, leftist, apathetics and clerics of course
Does Egypt have the same unity of purpose or voice or are they riven by doubt and fear? What did Roozevelt say: “fellow Americans, what we have to fear is fear itself”.
I also salut the Egyptian people and sincerely hope that she will radiate benevolence in the region and the wider Africa in the post-Mubarak era.
James Zogby at HuffingtonPost today has a great quote from Newt Gingrich regarding the situation in the Middle East. The pospective Republican candidate for president said: “[T]here’s a real possiblitity in a few weeks. . . that Egypt will join Iran, and join Lebanon, and join Gaza, and join the things that are happening that are extraordinarily dangerous to us.”
How is Gaza “dangerous” to the US?
R S Hack,
Glad you liked that link. Bruzonsky clearly has the measure of the power of the Israel lobby to dictate policy in the Middle East.
Lysander/Masoud: I agree that the Egyptian protesters need to move. They actually need to do both: hold Tahrir Square, for the reasons Arnold mentions, say with half a million people, then move with a half to one million on the palace and surround it until Mubarak AND Suleiman leave. They have to demand both leave in order to screw Obama’s plan to place the chief torturer in charge.
The Egyptian Army is full of conscripts and they will mutiny if ordered to massacre their own people. The generals know this. Moving directly against Mubarak will force the Army to choose.
Revolution is movement. You can’t do it standing in one place.
A new government in Egypt would pursue a nuclear energy program – right in Israel’s backyard. That is another reason for the U.S to keep the present regime in power.
If these protests in Egypt have done one thing it is to undermine the “sponsor regime change” mantra of the demented neoconservatives. There are more autocratic regimes aligned with the United States than those that oppose it in the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia and other regions of the world.
Iranian – It’s not the US which doesn’t want people to took-over power in Egypt – but America’s bosses in Tel Aviv who decide how the US should behave when it comes to Zionist entity’s interests. Israel’s first prime minister David Ben Gurion wrote in 1950s that the existing Arab rulers should be protected by all means because they’re the first Israeli defense against Islamic forces which may try to recover their lost Palestine.
Egyptians and other Arabs have to take lesson from 1979 Iranian revolution if they really want to get rid of their western puppet rulers.
American politicians know that they cannot trust Israel – but they’re scared to death to admit in public.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/ron-paul-irks-jewish-lobby/
Mr. Canning/Castellio: Thank you for the Bruzonsky interview link. Very interesting and coming from someone with obvious credibility.
He’s right that Obama knows all this and is just lying every time he speaks.
UU
You should know by now that, you just don’t go back to the last thread. So, here it is:
Ataboy!
Also, this made me smile: ‘beoble of Egypt’.
For the non-linguist amongst us, this refers to the fact that Arabic language does not have the following letters/sounds in the language – P (as in people), ch (as in chai, check), zh (as in the sound of s in pleasure), and finally g (as in gang, gay). Oh, wait; there are no gays in Iran either. ;)
Naturally, it is difficult for an Arabic speaker to pronounce words with these letters or sounds.
It seems that the US will not let the Egyptian people gain their freedom. Disgusting.
Unknown R. Unknowns –
ataboy
Paul,
My bad, most of what i addressed to you i actually meant to address to b-in-b.
Masoud,
My question was not meant to criticize Dabashi or Bussed-in Basiji. The claim by Bussed-in Basiji was that Dabashi left his native Khuzestan when it was under Iraqi occupation, or when war broke out. I am just trying to see if this is a valid claim.
re explosion of gas pipeline in Sinai and Israel’s need for fuel.
1. since Israel signed the deal with Egypt to purchase gas from Egypt (at below market rates, some of which Egypt was forced to buy back from Israel at market rates, netting Israel $12 billion profit), Israel has discovered its own massive natural gas resource in the Mediterranean, and has signed contracts with Noble corporation of Texas to develop the filed.
__ Recall that in 1995, Iran let a contract to US corporation CONOCO to develop fields in Iran. According to AIPAC agent Keith Weissman,
:http://www.edmaysproductions.net/webvideo/irannuke.wmv
AIPAC was responsible for crafting the Executive Order that Bill Clinton signed, sanctioning Iran, thereby forcing Conoco to forego the contract with Iran. Since an executive order could be reversed just as easily as it was signed, AIPAC pushed for legislation cementing the sanctions into law; the D’Amato Amendment/Iran-Libya Sanctions Act was the result.
But this was not Israel’s first act against Iran involving Iran’s oil resources. Iran and Israel had formed a shipping-pipeline company, incorporated in Switzerland (iirc), by which Iran sold Israel oil that Iran shipped to Eilat; from there it was piped to Ashkelon. From Ashkelon, Israel took what it needed for domestic consumption but sold the major share to Europe.
” . . .Until the mid-1950s, Israel received its oil from the Soviet Union, Kuwait (under British rule) and international oil companies. But in 1955-1956 these ties were severed, and Israel was forced to find new sources. Israel maintained secret ties with Iran, and wanted to turn it into its main oil supplier. Iran hesitated, for fear of undermining its relations with the Arab world, but after the 1956 Sinai Campaign, the Iranians were convinced and agreed to supply oil to Israel.
With the help of pumps and pipes “confiscated” – meaning stolen – from an Italian company and a Belgian company operating an oilfield in Ras Sudar in Sinai, Israel built a pipeline from Eilat to Ashkelon. The pipe, 40 centimeters in diameter, was paid for by Baron Edmund de Rothschild. The initiative was called Tri-Continental. By demand of the Iranians, who wanted to conceal their involvement in selling oil to Israel and in the joint company, the parties established a secret partnership called Fimarco, which was registered in July 1959 in the tax shelter of Lichtenstein. Iran owned 10 percent of the partnership. Tankers transported the oil from Iran to Eilat, and from there it was sent to Ashkelon through the pipeline.
But over the years Israel’s needs increased, and the Finance Ministry formulated a plan to replace the small pipe with a large 40-inch (106 centimeter) pipe and to set up a genuine partnership with Iran. Foreign minister Golda Meir, who secretly visited Tehran in August 1965, brought up the subject with the Shah and with Fatollah Nafici, one of the directors of the NIOC and the person in charge of the company’s clandestine ties with Israel. In order to demonstrate the seriousness of its intentions, Israel appointed Felix Shinar, one of the architects of the reparations agreement with Germany, as the project manager. Working with him were deputy defense minister Tzebi Dinstein; Dov Ben Dror, who was involved in the energy market; and Mossad operative Avigdor Bauer. NIOC president Manuchar Akbal joined the negotiations on behalf of Iran. The talks were conducted in Israel, Iran and Switzerland. . . .”
<a href = "http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/inside-intel-the-story-of-iranian-oil-and-israeli-pipes-1.230884" The Story of Iranian Oil and Israeli Pipes
As the above link explains, after 20 years of litigation and arbitration, a mediator in Europe decided in favor of Iran, giving Iran a multi-billion dollar claim against Israel which Israel has refused to pay. (hey, Israel’s 11th commandment: Don’t be a freier)
Yossi Melman reports on other close relationships Israel and Iran have been engaged in:
:http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2006/12/how-israel-lost-to-iranians-by-yossi.html
“From the time that Iran de facto recognized Israel in 1951,
increasingly close relations developed between the two countries,
until the 1970s when they reached a point of strategic
partnership. This partnership had four main components: Iranian
assistance for the immigration operations for Jews from Iraq;
Israeli-Iranian cooperation in the area of intelligence (the
Mossad, the Shin Bet security services and the Israel Defense
Forces helped to establish, train and operate the Iranian army
and the units of Sawak – the Iranian security service. In
exchange, Israel’s intelligence organizations received Iranian
assistance in gathering information and operating agents in Iraq
to assist the Kurdish revolt); agreements for military
cooperation; and the supply of Iranian oil to Israel.
Beginning in 1975, the military cooperation focused on an Iranian
investment of $1.2 billion in several research and development
initiatives of Israeli armaments. . . .”
In short — It would seem only just that the US impose sanctions on US companies– like Noble –as well as all other international corporations, to prevent them from developing Israel’s gas fields UNTIL Israel respects international law and settles its conflict with Palestinian Arabs in a just and equitable fashion; pays reparations for the damages it has caused, and submits to the NPT including the Additional Protocol.
Paul
I remember reading somewhere(probably his own book) that Dabashi was actually a student in the US before the revolution and flew back when it happened. I’m not suggesting we start worshiping the guy. But we should give credit were credit is due.
B-in-B,
He was one of the only expats to criticize(in the harshest terms) Nafisi’s disgusting novel and similar works.(and took a whole lot of flack for it)
He never claimed that election was ’stolen’(though he invented the incredible ’social fact’ mechanism to avoid the question). And I really liked, and learnt a lot from, his book. Though I agree it should definitely be read with a skeptical eye(remember, this is a guy who wrote passionately in favor of Obama’s campaign).
fara, re the gas line explosion in the Sinai and Egypt-to-Israel gas sales:
additional information:
“Published: 08/23/10, 5:59 PM / Last Update: 08/23/10, 7:32 PM
More Trouble for Egypt-Israel Gas Deal
by Maayana Miskin :http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/139270
Egypt’s sale of natural gas to Israel is creating controversy in Egypt again, due to rumors of a natural gas shortage in the country. Egypt provides Israel with roughly one-third of its natural gas under a 2005 agreement.
Egypt’s natural gas consumption has grown sharply in recent years, more than doubling between 2004 and 2010.
The country is currently experiencing power shortages, which some officials say were caused by insufficient natural gas at many power plants. Officials have called on Egyptians to conserve power and refrain from displaying the festive lights customarily used during the Ramadan holiday this year.
While the shortage has officially been blamed on a shortage of power stations and to failure in supplying existing gas to the stations, some have linked blackouts to gas sales to Israel. Dr. Hamdy Hassan of the Muslim Brotherhood parliamentary bloc submitted a question to Egypt’s Prime Minister on Saturday asking that the PM investigate the power outages and suggesting that he stop gas exports to Israel in order to provide additional power at home.
According to unnamed sources quoted in Egyptian media, the country’s government may seek to repurchase more than one billion cubic meters of natural gas sold to Israel.”
AND
Israel selling gas back to Egypt for profit :http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=16153
Aug 26th, 2010 | By Bikya Masr Staff | Category: Econ, Egypt, Palestine
CAIRO: An Egyptian daily newspaper is reporting that the Israeli government is reselling 1.5 billion cubic meters of natural gas to Egypt after it was exported from the North African country to the Jewish state. In 2005, Egypt signed the gas deal with Israel at a price per cubic meter that is currently well blow international market levels.
According to an al-Shabab newspaper report on the internal discussions within the Egyptian ministry of petroleum and mineral resources, which they reported had determined that at least half the gas sold to Israel was being sold back to Egypt for a total of $14 billion.
Egypt sells gas to Israel for around $2 billion, the newspaper said.
According to the Egyptian Minister of Petroleum Sameh Fawzy, in comments reported in January, that Egypt would need to import natural gas as a result of severe shortages in reserves and an increase in overall house and industry demands for power.
In recent weeks, the heat wave that struck the region has caused frequent power outages and water systems to be shut down in Egypt, resulting in demonstrations against the government.
The demonstrators are demanding immediate imports of natural gas. At the same time, today’s report has infuriated people over the government’s intention “to pay Tel Aviv $12 billion” for goods that originated in Egypt.”
Bussed-in Basiji,
According to his web site, Dabashi received “dual Ph.D. in Sociology of Culture and Islamic Studies from the University of Pennsylvania in 1984, followed by a postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard University”.
The Iran-Iraq war broke out in September 1980. Was Dabashi in Iran at the time, left immediately, and got two PhDs in the course of 4 years?
I am just honestly asking, I don’t know.
It is really disgusting that that U.S officials are now insisting Mubarak stay on so that he can show leadership and steer his country in a direction he has opposed for 30 years. Also, that he be allowed to create a legacy for himself other than that of political repression and corruption.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12374753
Mubarak has resigned as head of the NDP but this alone changes nothing. Soleiman will be the army’s new strongman and the regime will wear the opposition down with these “constitutional talks” which will serve only as window dressing.
Article 76 makes it hard for anyone not part of the government to run for president.
In a sense, the regime has pre-empted the fallout it would have received later in the year when it fixes the election . Better that people call on an already outbound Mubarak to stand down than the new pharaoh of Egypt.
fyi says: February 4, 2011 at 10:22 pm (from other thread)
yes, that’s true. but, do we have any state which is not modernizing these days? modernization is the inevitable force of history. ironically, the Egyptian gov. ,supported fully by the presumably modern world, showed an act of demodernization by going back to camels and horses.
modernization is often mixed with westernization. I am aware of the intellectual discussion in that respect, and it has some sort of true in it after all. but if the core of the modernity is nothing but “rationalization”, then it is not specifically a western phenomenon that is often hijacked by the western propaganda machine. the difference between what happened in the west in the past few centuries and the rest of the world is about the rate. we are witnessing the reverse phenomenon nowadays, anyhow. the notion might be totally different in the next century or so.
hans says:February 5, 2011 at 1:55 am
I am not sure if we can generalize this notion that the entire Sunni world is politically illiterate or the entire Shitte world is politically awakened. just look at the Iranian greens as an example.
it’s however true that a very big segment of the Arab Sunni world is politically not that active. doesn’t seem to be embedded in their collective culture. this was the case from the very beginning Islam. their most strategic action was probably to move to Euphrates and defeat an already exploded empire; i.e. Sassanian empire. even with that, it took more than 200 years to fully occupy Iran even though the population was totally fad up with an unjust system. in some locations, it took up to 4 centuries.
historically, most of Islam’s advancement were achieved by Turks, Muslim Mongols, Afghans… who all happen to be Sunnies.
Egypt gas pipeline explodes
It also gives some insight into how the gas deal with Israel went ahead, despite the court ruling.
http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=27556692
masoud-jan,
Enough for you to know that the (dis)honorable Mr. Dabashi chose to abandon his native Khuzestan in the time when it was overrun by Saddam’s armies and instead decided to crawl up the rear end of some post-modern professor. We all have to live with the consequences of our moral choices.
Scott,
Douchebag, the quote was a personl statement by a the website editor Khaled Hamza of an ikhwan site in London. Interestingly he adds a little quote from the chief faeces eater Maryam in his article. Very credible and official (for douchebags like you). On that very same site if you take a look at the official statements no denial or refutation. Like i said, douchebag.
Castellio,
I thought you would find the interview interesing. Bruzonsky is quite right that Obama knows he cannot resist the power of the Israel lobby. This situation is a direct threat to the national security of the American people because it prevents intervention to resolve chronic problems. Such as getting Israel out of the West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Unknown Unknowns,
the Russians were opposed to the last round of sanctions against Iran, and they are quite right to oppose further sanctions. The Israel lobby plus idiot US politicians are calling for more sanctions “to protect Israel”.
The url for the interview with Bruzonsky is:
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/163828.html
The transcript is there also, and is very interesting. It includes a behind the scenes look at AIPAC and Obama.
fyi,
You have some remarkable notions. Putin time and again has made the point that Russia has more to fear from an Iran armed with nuclear weapons than most other countries. And that is one reason Russia would prefer working with Iran to resolve the nuclear dispute.
Obviously, Britain had no chance to win the Second World War, without colossal help from the US. Ditto with the Soviet Union; American assistance was vital.
I recommend the interview with Mark Bruzonsky on PressTV.com today. He is Jewish-American and an expert on how the Israel lobby has subverted the ability of the US to act in the best interests of the American people, in matters pertaining to Israel and the Middle East.
FYI, when you write, “That is, the expulsion of non-Muslim powers from Muslim lands”, you’re not suggesting ridding Egypt of the Copts are you? I don’t think you are, but just checking.
I think one of the best things that might come out of this movement is the closer relationship between Egyptian Copts and Muslims, joined in resistance to Mubarakism. A good thing.
Arnold,
I think ‘holding election’ in Tahrir square is a non starter. For now, the leaders of the movement are it’s most charismatic speakers. I agree with Lysander on the strategy of milling about the square and the need to reclaim the initiative. My opinion doesn’t count for much at all, since i know next to nothing about Egyptian society, but it is what it is. The revolution either marches, or dies.
It is hard for a revolution to succeed without a clear front runner leader and a revolutionary council, like the examples in USA, Russia, Iran, and Cuba etc., current opposition parties just can’t ask people to come to the square indefinitely, the protestors that are asking the government to fall, are going to get tired if their uprising/ protest is not turned into a revolution and is not moving forward. After all that is what the other side is hoping for to buy time.
Lysander,
I don’t know of any great books on Iran’s revolution. But if you do have time, pick up Hamid Dabashi’s ‘A people interrupted’, which covers the last hundred years of Iran’s history. Dabashi has now become an insufferable green eyed monster, and he always was the type to condemn everything left and right in the harshest, most dramatic terms, just to cover his bases, and he really should put down the thesaurus when composing prose, but his book is still pretty book.
Just thought of another matter. Are there no demonstrations elsewhere in Cairo? I don’t recall in Tehran that demonstrators held on to a central square and just waited for the Shah to leave.
I shouldn’t have said Baradei doesn’t have a party… I should have said that he is perceived as relatively neutral to the other groups with proven support and developed positions.
RSH, thanks for your detailed work addressing Liz’s question. The relation between the STL and the political front for MEK had passed completely unnoticed by me.
Arnold: I can’t agree with you that the demonstrators must now choose leaders (if that’s what you’re implying). I think the oppositional figures quite well known, and it is with the people below that the transitional group should be conferring:
1. Mohamed ElBaradei: Former head of International Atomic Energy Agency, leader of Egypt’s National Association for Change
2. Mohammad Baltagi: Head of Muslim Brotherhood bloc of lawmakers from 2005 to 2010
3. Hamdeen Sabahy: Head of the Karama Party, a secular, left-wing Arab Nationalist party
4. Abdel Galil Mustafa: The coordinator for the National Association for Change, Mr. ElBaradei’s group
5. Mahmoud Al-Khudairi: Former vice president of Egypt’s appeals court
6. George Ishaq: Former head of the Kefaya protest movement, which led the protest against President Mubarak in 2005
7. Abdel Ezz Hariri: Formerly of Tegammu, a secular leftist party
8. Ayman Nour: Head of the liberal secular Ghad party. Ran against Mubarak in 2005 elections
9. Magdy Ahmed Hussein: Head of the pro-Islamist Labor Party
10. Osama Ghazali Harb: A former member of Mubarak’s ruling NDP and Mubarak family confidant; left the party and founded the secular and liberal National Democratic Front. Editor in chief of Siyasat Dowlia, an Egyptian journal on international affairs
(I can’t remember from where I took this list, but it appears broad and convincing to me.)
The strength of El-Baradei, then, is that he doesn’t have a party, and thus can be perceived as fairly neutral in relationship to groups that do have proven roots.
Between Reza’s predictions and yours is quite a distance, and I fall somewhere in that vast space.
For the revolution to last, it must not only be political, but economic…
I remember reading about the head of the stl supporting mko before, but i couldn’t tell you were.
Scott Lucas,
You didn’t show the statement on their official websites in Arabic. This just shows that paid mercenaries like you merely feed people propaganda.
By the way, has the IT expert fixed the university website yet or do you still have that big lie about your CV on the website?
UU, you write: “This is why, in response to the crisis of modernity and its concommitant cultural imperialism, which threatened and threatens the very heart of Islam, Shi’a Iran was able to produce a Khomeini as teh mujadded and muhiyeddin (Renewer and Revivifier of the Religion), whereas al-Azhar and even the Ikhwan (MB) have taken and are taking a back seat to the millions of Egyptians who are daily pouring into the streets in desperation, railing agaisnt a system of vassal patronage of a perfidious army, whose head is as numerous and replicating as a hydra.”
But the “millions of Egyptians who are daily pouring into the streets” are Sunni. Are they not politically educated? Are you not, from first principles, banishing Sunni political actions as inherently inferior to Shi’a? To whose advantage is that?
I think Khamenei was clear NOT to do that.
Lysander
You are right soon the protestors have to force the army to take stand, like force them to shoot by marching on state media or they will have to fold support for the current structure , in my opinion will be very tough since there is no clear front runner leader, in Iran early on ayatollah Khomini due to massive support that he enjoyed and more importantly because of the countries religious structure, was able to unify or marginalized all the other potential balancing oppositions, once the opposition was unified ( revolution council) on not only what they are against but also what they are for the army no longer had the choice to shoot.
I think that Lucas and the supporters of “Enduring America” want to split the Brotherhood – they want to separate the “sheep from the goats” as they see it.
This has been accomplished with other Arab nationalist and Pan-Islamic movements. It is the classic “divide and rule” strategy behind the Pax Americana.
However, Scott Lucas’ plan will be nipped in the bud.
Arnold,
I was actually speaking hypothetically. The point was that the revolt is very widespread and clearing Tahrir, even if they managed it, would not really be an end to their problems.
That said, determined army soldiers in riot gear could probably do it without resorting to live ammo. If the world isn’t paying attention, I can’t say for sure they wouldn’t try it.
Thank you Liz,
Your immediate reaction is all I need — well, beyond the statements that Muslim Brotherhood representatives made in interviews yesterday as well as on websites — of their position.
Big hugs!
S.
Unknown Unknowns says: February 5, 2011 at 12:05 pm
There is also a historical process that has been going on for the last 150 years.
That is, the expulsion of non-Muslim powers from Muslim lands. From Java to the Atlas Mountains, this has been going on and will continue to go on until the last vestiges of non-Muslim political power among Muslims has been destroyed.
It, unfortunately, could be a brutal process.
It cannot be stopped.
I am wondering if India can escape this dynamics or will she disintegrate as a consequence of Muslims’ rejection of Brahmanist political control.
Question for the floor:
If a group of ad-hoc protesters occupying a square in the capital of a Middle Eastern country were to want to hold elections, to figure out who inside of that square could claim to represent and speak as a representative of the views of the protesters in the square, how could it go about doing that?
Unknown Unknowns says: February 5, 2011 at 11:59 am
For Russua and China, Iran is like Great Britain was to the later Mr. Roosevelt during early phases of World War II.
He planned on supplying and materially supporting Great Britain in her war against the Third Reich to keep that “Beach Head” in Europe available for future use.
The Islamic Republic is essential to security of Russia and China.
With the incorporation of India as an un-official US partner, China, Pakistan, and Iran will be forced to forge an informal alliance of sorts. Nothing official, just a lot of covert cooperation.
Lysander:
The army can clear Tahrir square in an hour.
By bombing it? If Suleiman could stop the protests, he would have. The army wouldn’t follow the orders necessary to clear Tahrir square now that it’s occupied, and it is in an important part of downtown Cairo. The city is not functioning normally. What the protesters are doing now is putting a good amount of pressure on the government, I think also from outside.
If I was to give advice to the protesters it would be to appoint spokespeople and ensure that their voice reaches the Egyptian people as broadly as possible, so that the government has a more difficult time directing the terms of discussion regarding the protests and the reforms or concessions that are to come.
One sheet worth of exactly what the protesters demand and why, that can be spread throughout the country would be excellent. Representatives going throughout the country and having local meetings where they discuss their demands directly with people would circumvent the control the authorities have over over most of the country’s formal mass communication systems.
But I feel like they are doing very well, and obviously are capable of producing effective decision-making. I’m really not very worried about the protests or their outcome at this point.
Arnold:
From your finger tips to God’s eyes.
The protesters gave their word that they would negotiate once Mubarak is out of office. The first step is to get him out of office. That is just a matter of time now, and certainly he’ll be out long before September.
Once he’s out of office, the protesters can then negotiate who plays what role in the government between now and elections. I expect reforms of the security apparatus, an unbanning of the Muslim Brotherhood, a lifting of the emergency laws and other changes in Egyptian domestic policy to be put in place in early stages of negotiations before elections.
My best guess now, of who will be Egypt’s president in October 2011 is ElBaradei, and after his term he will be followed by a now-unknown populist as President with the Muslim Brotherhood as quite possibly the single largest party in Parliament.
By October, contrary to the wishes of Obama and Clinton, the army may not have much, if any direct role in Egypt’s civilian government.
I’m very disappointed in the Western journalists who are not asking Obama and his administration what his position is regarding democracy in Egypt, and how it justifies the stance it took for his entire presidency until the protesters fought off government repression in Tahrir square about a week ago.
Great book about the Iranian revolution: The Unthinkable Revolution in Iran, Charles Kurzman, Harvard University Press 2005.
On Egypt:
Game over: The chance for democracy in Egypt is lost
http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/02/02/game_over_the_chance_for_democracy_in_egypt_is_lost
The Rahbar is Right.
Egyptians are awakening.
Egyptians are [overwhelmingly] Moslem.
Therefore, What is happening in Egypt is *necessarily* a Moslem Awakening.
QED
Can someone recommend a good book about the revolution in Iran, explaining Khomeini’s methods, how the Shah and the west responded, and why they ultimately failed to stop the revolution?
Thanks
As for Egypt’s revolution, here are some general comments thus far. (Full disclosure: I’m a transplanted Egyptian-American and non-religious Muslim)
1) The biggest challenge for the opposition now is how to preserve the leadership should the protests fade. What will prevent the government from arresting torturing and killing any figure it wants to after things settle down? Even if Mubarak left tomorrow, Suleiman will try to do precisely that.
2) Egypt is simply not Iran. It doesn’t have the natural resources, arable land, higher education system or decent sized middle class that Iran has. It is a muc much poorer country and would collapse under the kind of Pressure Iran has endured for over 30 years.
3) Given the above two points, possibly Egypt will have to have its revolution in steps and not all at once.
4) However, even that may prove impossible since the government will try its best to take back any concessions it made under pressure, once the pressure is off.
Those are very negative aspects.
On the positive side,
1) The government is making minor concessions in the hope that it will divide the opposition. But I think this could backfire. It makes it look like the government is weak and is trying to placate the crowd.
2) The army can clear Tahrir square in an hour. But this is not Tienanmen. There have been mass protests nation wide, not in one place. Riot police left since last Friday. The government has no means for crowd control.
I can’t dictate to the protesters what hey should do from the safety of my computer. But to win they will have to put the army in a position where it either has to shoot at them or allow the government to fall. Marching on the presidential palace, the state TV station, interior ministry, etc. This is costly and deadly and I’m ashamed to say it from five thousand miles away, but that will give them enormous momentum, and once it becomes clear the Army can’t protect government installations, it will be truly over.
http://www.amlalommah.net
http://www.egyptwindow.net
These are two of their main Arabic websites. Show us the news American State department mercenary Scott Lucas:
http://www.nowabikhwan.com/
http://www.ikhwanonline.com
MUNICH, February 5 (RIA Novosti)
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has called against introducing a new set of sanctions against Iran. “The sanctions which were approved in June last year, the sanctions aimed at [Iran's] nuclear program have been completely exhausted,” Lavrov said at the Munich Security Conference. Lavrov said the new sanctions would damage the Iranian economy.
Unknown Unknowns says: “Cram it up your punk ass, Lavrov.”
Reza:
Mubarak has said he doesn’t care if people chant slogans in Tahrir square – he is going to continue doing his job. Soleiman is the next President. The Brotherhood will remain outlawed.
I don’t know about that. The country doesn’t start returning to normal until the protests end. The protesters don’t go home until they are satisfied with the electoral process. If the people in the square don’t accept Suleiman as transitional then he can’t get power. Even though the US is not publicly supporting him.
I can assure you that Obama will forget about Egypt’s “transition to democracy” once the media spotlight on the protests ends.
The fact is that the army has remained loyal to Mubarak, and the plan for a crippling nationwide strike failed to take place.
I suspect the majority of Egyptians now just want things to normalize so they can buy bread and carry on with everyday life. I don’t really blame them.
Khamenei’s speech was principled in nature but it was far too undiplomatic given that the regime had not been overthrown.
Scott Lucas,
None of the Arabic Ikwan sites have made such statements and Ayatollah Khameini was not speaking to any particular party anyway. Hypocrites like you will just have to keep grumbling.
Khamenei: ‘Protests in the world of Islam echo voice of Iranian nation’
http://rehmat2.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/khamenei-protests-in-the-world-of-islam-echo-voice-of-iranian-nation/
Scott Lucas – I put on my ‘Made in Israel’ glasses but could not find Muslim Brotherhood’s criticism on its official website – even before the Israeli thugs thought of this lie.
Thanks for always lying from both side of your body.
Pirouz, @ 12:06 am:
“I reproduced this translation by “Empty,” as well. I’m hoping “Empty” doesn’t mind, it was a sermon full of incite and I’m grateful for the translation.”
I think you meant to write, “inSIGHT,” but “inCITE” was an insightful mistake.
Rehmat,
Original source for the Muslim Brotherhood’s statement criticising Supreme Leader re Egyptian Revolution v. Islamic Revolution — http://www.ikhwanweb.com/
But thanks as always for the kind words!
S.
JohnH
“The real problem with Iran is the example it sets of defiant independence from the US agenda.”
Yes, John you got that right, nerveless it looks that the chickens are finally home and have began roosting for US.
Reza Esfandiari says:
February 5, 2011 at 8:18 am
“There are too many vested interests in the preservation of the ruling regime for it to fall.”
I agree with you that the army is fully entrenched and what is likely is for a change of stooges at the top at best. However, Richard is right. In my self-appointed role of Class Prefect (mobser-e kelaas) – in addition to Class Clown, of course – I need to ask you to extend your hand and get it whacked by my virtual ruler for having too positive a position. Unknown Unknowns are highly active. Of course, it is possible that in His wisdom, He who writes teh script and controls the Reality Studio (as opposed to the Hollywood studios, which are controlled by another force entirely) wishes to embarras and humiliate (rosvaa kardan) the Arrogance of Global Powers, and so, Egyptians and indeed the whole world might be made to wait another chapter or two (yet another generation or two) before the curtain falls on this daemonic Drama (Shaytan-e Bozorg!). BUT, we know He likes surprises, that He likes to play Hide and Seek, and that He likes to make deals. So, if you you make a deal with Him to let the curtain fall now rather than later, and Richard does not make a deal with Him at all (lest he be considered human, God forbid), it is possible that the locus of your consciousness will end up in a multiverse where the beoble of Egypt, through a miraculous and glorious plot twist, and victorious, and Richard end up in a universe that is expanding further and further away from the light and heat of the rays of the Sun.
May all of humanity draw closer to the light and warmth of God. Ameen.
hans says:
February 5, 2011 at 1:55 am
we should be asking this question, “why is the entire sunni world politically illiterate?”
Also for Castellio
If you want to pursue this question, a good place to start would be Wilferd Madelung’s *The Succession to Muhammad* (even though this superb book does not deal with the theosophical aspects, but simply the political ones).
From a Shi’i perspective, the reason is quite simple. Very soon after the passing of teh Prophet, with whom be peace, from the material plane, the majority of teh Moslem community (ummah) accepted a de facto separation of mosque and state by acquiessing to the rule of the ‘Umayyads. The Shi’a refused to accept this new reality, insisting that as part of God’s Covenant with Man, He was bound to provide for humanity a Divine Guide at all times. Hence, the Shi’a believe that the Imams were meant to rule over the ummah, but that their right was usurped by a community who no longer deserved guidance from above. And as all the Imams were martyred save one, he went into a state of occultation sometime in the middle of the 10th C (946 CE?). That portion of the community who did not have this religious feeling, accepted the trifurcation of the functions of the Imams (who were held to be equivalent to the Prophet himself, save for the Apolstolate function (the bringing of a new Revelation and new Law). And so the trifold functions of Political/ Military Leader, Jurisconsult/ Judge, and Spiritual Guide, which is Shi’a Islam were all the exclusive functions of the Imams (at least until teh Occultation), became trifurcated in that part of the community which later came to call itself the *Ahl as-Sunna wa’l-Jama’a (or Sunnis for short). This trifurcation of what the Shi’a consider must be the *unitary* functions of the imam (leader/ prayer leader) of the community thus gave rise to the institutions of the Caliphate (Politica/ Military rule, and usually secular throughout Sunni history, with its own secular laws and courts – yes folks, the separation of church and state was, unfortunately, effected in the Sunni world about 1,400 years ago), the institution of the fuqaha’ (jurisconsults, as in al-Azhar, and before them, before the gate of Ijtihad was closed, the founders of the four madhhabs (rites) and their students; and lastly, of course, this trifurcation gave rise to the Sufis, who fulfilled the function of the Spiritual Guide.
OK, having given that brief background, I can now get to your answwer. The answer is that because the clerical class in Sunnite Islam accepted (by and large: teh exceptions such as Ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taymiyyah underscore the rule, the latter not even being a Sunni, strictus sensus) accepted the secular rule of the caliphs (in a reactionary nod to “might makes right”), and gradually aligned their political views through the centuries with those of the caliph through a system of patronage, the Sunni sect lost, in its religious leadership, the ability independently to form its own political opinions and theories.
This is why, in response to the crisis of modernity and its concommitant cultural imperialism, which threatened and threatens the very heart of Islam, Shi’a Iran was able to produce a Khomeini as teh mujadded and muhiyeddin (Renewer and Revivifier of the Religion), whereas al-Azhar and even the Ikhwan (MB) have taken and are taking a back seat to the millions of Egyptians who are daily pouring into the streets in desperation, railing agaisnt a system of vassal patronage of a perfidious army, whose head is as numerous and replicating as a hydra.
Imam Khomeini, in one of his defenses of his theory of the Guardianship of hte Jurisconsult that stands out in my mind, said that it is quite possible that the Occulted Imam might not reappear on Earth for “another 200,000 years”, by which time, he argued – convincingly, in my view – that Islam would have disappeared entirely from the face of teh earth if the Guardians of teh Faith, the fuqaha (those with knowledge of the religion) did not act to preserve it.
*
By the way, someone just HAS to go back to the last thread and give me an ataboy for my “collapsing ovens” post. Its gotta be my best one to date!!
Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Sayyed Ali Khamenei said during the Friday prayers sermons in Tehran that the uprising in Egypt and Tunisia are sign of an Islamic awakening. “This is what was always referred to as the Islamic awakening created by the victory of the great revolution of the Iranian nation,” Ayatollah Khamenei said.
He added that the Iranian nation’s voice is echoed in the countries of the Muslim world, pointing to the Tunisia revolution and Egypt uprising. “Today, developments in North Africa, [including] Egypt, Tunisia and some other countries have a special meaning for the Iranian nation,” His Eminence stated.
“For 30 years this country (Egypt) has been in the hands of someone who is not seeking freedom and is the enemy of those seeking freedom,” Imam Khamenei said. “Not only he is not anti-Zionist, but he is the companion, colleague, confidant and servant of Zionists. It is a fact that Hosni Mubarak’s servitude to America has been unable to take Egypt one step towards prosperity,” Imam Khamenei said.
Ayatollah Khamenei said that Americans and “Israelis” have become helpless in the face of freedom-seeking Egyptians and noted that irreparable defeat awaits the US and “Israel” in Tunisia and Egypt.
The Leader also made a reference to Egyptians’ fight for “dignity and honor” and noted that Mubarak’s biggest crime was to make Egypt a tool in the hands of the US. His Eminence further added that Mubarak is “a lackey of the Zionist Regime”.
Ayatollah Khamenei noted that also Tunisia’s former President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali was dependent on the US and even the CIA.
On a related note, Imam Khamenei also said that the Islamic Revolution in Iran disrupted the plots by Western countries trying to establish weak and vulnerable regimes in the Middle East. He further added that Iran’s enemies have been launching a psychological war against it for the past 32 years, pointing to the 2009 post-election events in Iran as the enemies’ latest scenario to damage the Islamic Revolution.
Sayyed Khamenei said “Israel” was the most concerned about the Arab revolts as they know if Egypt stops being their ally and take its rightful place, it would be a great event in the region. He finally reiterated that all these efforts will not have any effect on the Iranian Nation.
http://english.moqawama.org/essaydetailsf.php?eid=13350&fid=8
hans – why the Muslim Brotherhood instead of posting that message on its official website – gave it to a Zionist think tank site?
Muslim Brotherhood tells Iran’s Islamic Leader Khamenai this is “People’s Revolution” not an “Islamic Revolution”
:http://www.enduringamerica.com/home/2011/2/4/egypt-and-beyond-liveblog-a-big-day-and-not-just-in-cairo.html#
Why the US hates the Iranian regime: “the most important of Imam Khomeini’s eternal legacies in the contemporary world was his offering a model for religious democracy.”
The Iranian regimes revolutionary rhetoric does not sit well with US allies, tyrants all in the region.
It’s not about hypothetical Iranian nukes. The unproven Iranian nuke program is only the latest US public relations ploy.
The real problem with Iran is the example it sets of defiant independence from the US agenda.
Former Jimmy Carter is being sued by Israelis for US$5 million for criticizing the Zionist entity in his 2006 book “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid”
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/jimmy-carter-hit-by-5-million-israeli-lawsuit/
Talk about the extent of brainwashing going on.
http://www.euronews.net/2011/02/05/a-camera-can-now-transform-an-egyptian-into-an-iranian-agent/
The media have hyped this “revolution” because they need a story. There are too many vested interests in the preservation of the ruling regime for it to fall.
Mubarak has said he doesn’t care if people chant slogans in Tahrir square – he is going to continue doing his job. Soleiman is the next President. The Brotherhood will remain outlawed.
In their own words listen to the religious bigotry of Zionist psychopaths (BBC documentary Ultra Zionists).
:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTszskhUrd0&feature=player_embedded
The funny thing is that every single piece of clothing, cars, houses, machines, electricity, gun … anything you see there, is free for those people, it rains from the sky like manna , and comes from you dear readers, the stupid taxpayers !
Reza Esfandiari: And I’m accused here of speaking with too much certainty!
It’s a long way from here to September!
Reza Esfandiari
I’m not so sure.
Wait til the hardline Salafis comes to power in Egypt! The Americans will regret fighting with Iran all the time!
Khamenei spoke too soon: Mubarak is not going to quit and I am certain the regime will try and ride this wave of protests out.
Omar Soleiman will be “elected” in September. The Egyptian “revolution” is over.
Richard Steven Hack
Thanks for the information. Extraordinary stuff.
Liz: Also, if you download this PDF file from the “Comité voor vrede, vrijheid en democratie in Iran” [CVVD IRAN]:
:http://www.cvvdiran.nl/attachments/082_200908_verslag_In%20Search%20of%20Justice%20(Engels).pdf
you read this quote from Cassese:
Quote
Professor Antonio Cassese, a pre-eminent Italian jurist and President of the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, said at the conference, “Levying an unjust accusation of terrorism against a political organization is a serious and crippling charge. Those who believe in democracy and human rights must loudly protest against such an outrageous allegation and just as loudly expose violations of the law.” Prof. Cassese added, “The Ashraf issue is also not separate from this listing, because the reason why residents of Ashraf are in danger is the terror listing. If the US does not continue protecting them, the mullahs will have a free hand and this can lead to a catastrophe. Therefore, we must work to prevent such a catastrophe.”
End Quote
This is clearly a politicized statement, not a legal opinion.
There apparently is a major EU movement against Iran in this respect. This EU movement appears to be actively attempting to build up the M.E.K. as a “legitimate Iranian Resistance” similar to how Ahmed Chalabi and his group were built up by the neocons in the US prior to the Iraq War.
Prior to reading these documents, I was not aware how serious this situation was. It appears the M.E.K. and the EU have formed a major alliance against Iran in concert with the neocon scum in the US, which is why a number of US Congressmen are lobbying for the same action of removing the MEK from the terrorist list.
Liz: In fact it was posted here just a few threads ago:
Kev. says:
January 25, 2011 at 9:29 pm
Dont forget that the STL Tribunal for Hariri Tribunal leader Cassese is a MEK supporter.
:http://www.iran-interlink.org/?mod=view&id=9327
which was posted in the “With Engagement Failing” posted here January 23. That Iran-Interlink article in turn links to the PressTV article.
This article even has a photo of him from Fars News with Maryam Rajavi at a conference in Europe sponsored by an anti-Iran organization.
:http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/furuhashi270111.html
The organization referred to in these articles, the “Friends of a Free Iran” are referenced in this Human Rights Watch article as an organization which challenged HRW report on civil rights violations inside the M.E.K. camp:
Statement on Responses to Human Rights Watch Report on Abuses by the Mojahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO)
:http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/02/14/statement-responses-human-rights-watch-report-abuses-mojahedin-e-khalq-organization-
The organization appears to be a group composed of four members of the EU Parliament, as follows: Alejo Vidal Quadras, Paulo Casaca, Andre Brie, and Struan Stevenson. These people are high ranking members of the European Union.
If you download this PDF document:
:www.cvvdiran.nl/attachments/082_Dear_friends_5_Jan.pdf
you will find that it is a letter dated January 6, 2009, from the “European Committee to De-List the PMOI” [the M.E.K. front political organization]. It specifically refers to Cassese as follows:
Quote
I would like to draw your attention to the legal opinion by pre-eminent jurist Professor Antonio Cassese, on the implications of the 4th of December judgment of the Court of First Instance, annulling the Council decision so far as it concerned the inclusion of the People’s Mojahedin Organisation of Iran in the EU terror list. Prof. Cassese is the Former Judge and President of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and member of the Institut de droit international, In effect, the CFI judgment of 4th December virtually confirmed the previous legal opinion by Prof. Cassese on the 15 July 2008 Council Decision to maintain the PMOI on the EU terrorist list. At the time, Prof. Casssese wrote that the Council action had been unlawful. The Council’s failure to uphold the law earned it the Court’s rebuke.
In his legal opinion Prof. Cassese stresses:
• As a matter of principle judgments of the CFI must be given effect immediately;
• The annulment of the Decision, in the limited part concerning PMOI, immediately produces effects;.
• The Council is therefore duty bound to take all the consequential measures necessary to bring into effect such cessation of legal effects of its Decision (in the part concerning PMOI);
• Any contrary claim by the Council would stultify the action of the Court and amount to a serious misuse of power;
• Were the Council to rely on its claim that the annulment under discussion does not produce immediate legal effects for the purpose of gaining time so as to pass, under its six month review of the List, a new Decision putting again PMOI on the List, it
would manifestly thwart the practical effects of the annulment by the CFI, thereby not only undermining the credibility of the CFI’s role and function, but also blatantly violating the fundamental rights of due process laid down in European law and PMOI’s right to judicial protection;
End Quote
We should be careful to note that this is a legal opinion by Cassese. Since I am not familiar with the facts of the case, I cannot determine whether Cassese specifically approves of M.E.K. or whether it is simply his legal opinion that the PMOI should be removed from the terrorist list for specific reasons.
Nonetheless, the fact that he appears in association with the FOFI organization in the referenced photo would indicate the former. In other words, this does not appear to be an unbiased legal opinion.
According to this article which comes from the organization, a number of prominent jurists also agree with this opinion:
:http://www.fffi.se/formation_of_a_european_communit.htm
Quote:
In the first session of the conference pre-eminent jurists, including Lord Slynn of Hadley, former judge at the European Court of Justice; Professor Antonio Cassese, former President of the UN International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia; Professor Herni Labayle, Jean Monnet Chair at the University of Pau; Professor Bill Bowring, President of the European Association of Lawyers for Democracy and Human Rights; Sir Geoffrey Bindman, Visiting Professor of law at the University College London presented their legal opinion about the Council decision in July to maintain the PMOI on the list.
End Quote
Since we know what M.E.K. is about, clearly these people are politically on the side of the neocons. This would indicate to me that they are also against Lebanon and Hizballah.
I would say there is enough evidence that the STL Tribunal is politicized against Hizballah.
Liz: Yes, I’d heard this before just recently. I can’t remember where I read it but I believe it’s considered to be fact.
Nasrallah is not stupid. Hizballah knows what is going on. They have an intelligence network probably as good as many national intelligence networks.
This is who the EU+USA wants to deal with
:http://www.homepagedaily.com/Pages/article7178-the-torturers-apprentice.aspx
Just a snippet:
” Suleiman slapped Habib’s face so hard, the blindfold was dislodged, revealing the torturer’s identity. According to his memoir, Habib was repeatedly zapped with high-voltage electricity, immersed in water up to his nostrils, beaten, his fingers were broken and he was hung from metal hooks.
He was again interrogated by Omar Suleiman. To loosen Habib’s tongue, Suleiman ordered a guard to murder a gruesomely shackled Turkistan prisoner in front of Habib – and he did, with a vicious karate kick.”
I didn’t know that, Liz. Is there secondary confirmation on that?
Hans:
Bit hard on the Sunnis, isn’t it? What do you mean exactly? Are you repeating Friedman who wrote, “What the turmoil in Egypt also demonstrates is how much Israel is surrounded by a huge population of young Arabs and Muslims who have been living outside of history”… or are you making a different point?
we should be asking this question, “why is the entire sunni world politically illiterate?” I mean that they have no comprehension of politics as a practical art. Shi’ites, on the other hand, understand practical politics quite well, probably better than any western governments do. I think the difference must lie in the religious cultures as such.
DID ANYONE KNOW THIS!!!
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/161503.html
It’s unfortunate that the arabic script isn’t being read as such on the home page. Is there some way to fix that?
This translation was also posted on the Uskowi on Iran blog with credit to “an anonymous commenter at the RFI blog”.
:http://uskowioniran.blogspot.com/2011/02/khameneis-friday-prayer-sermon-to.html
Meanwhile, our weak and lying President has suggested to Mubarak that he “consider his legacy” while contemplating stepping down.
Mubarak has $40 billion in the bank, and Obama wants him to “consider his legacy” of thirty years as a US paid thug.
How about Obama threatening that the US and the EU will freeze Mubarak’s assets unless he steps down? That would be pressure.
Obama is, as Ray McGovern has called him, a “wuss.” Actually he’s not a wuss, he’s a liar. All this “lip service”, as Khamenei correctly refers to it, is just a means to “force upon you their own agents”, as he also correctly states.
How anyone can take Obama as anything more than just another George Bush – albeit with better elocution – is just amazing.
I reproduced this translation by “Empty,” as well. I’m hoping “Empty” doesn’t mind, it was a sermon full of incite and I’m grateful for the translation.