Flynt appeared on Al Jazeera’s Inside Story, in a segment called “A Gas OPEC in the Making?”, click on the picture above or the link here, to discuss the Gas Exporting Countries’ Forum in Doha. Although the conversation was not focused on Iran per se, Flynt made some points that are relevant to thinking about the Islamic Republic’s strategic position and America’s Iran policy.
One of the many manifestations of internal incoherence in U.S. policy toward the Islamic Republic concerns energy: At a time of mounting concern about the adequacy of global oil and gas supplies in coming years (with all that portends for energy prices), Washington continues to insist that the world’s second-largest proven reserves of conventional crude oil (in Iran) and the world’s second-largest proven reserves of natural gas (also in Iran) should stay in the ground, for reasons that have nothing to do with the global energy balance.
–To reinforce the point, the United States forbids American energy companies from doing business in Iran. It also threatens third-country energy companies doing or contemplating doing business in Iran with so-called “secondary sanctions”—almost certainly illegal under the World Trade Organization, though no one has litigated the question yet—and various types of political pressure.
–Furthermore, American policymakers continue to insist that Iran’s massive hydrocarbon reserves should stay in the ground until they decide it is “OK” to monetize them—again, for reasons that have nothing to do with the global energy balance.
As the United States pursues this incoherent—or, as Flynt says on Inside Story, “schizophrenic”—approach, it also continues to insist that it is providing the world with the vital public good of energy security. More specifically, U.S. officials in multiple administrations, Republican and Democratic (including the Obama Administration), have claimed that America’s commitment to ensuring the physical security of hydrocarbon exports from the Persian Gulf—a commitment enshrined in the 1980s Carter Doctrine—is something from which everyone benefits. This includes not just traditional U.S. allies in Europe and Asia, but also major energy-exporting countries and rising powers like China.
However, if one considers some of America’s more provocative strategic initiatives in recent years, such as the 2003 invasion of Iraq, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that, notwithstanding these declaratory commitments, Washington often acts in ways that, in fact, limit the flow of Persian Gulf hydrocarbons to international oil and gas markets. (Behind closed doors, this assessment seems to be shared by critical clusters of people in the Middle East and China.) American sanctions policy toward Iran very much follows this pattern. If the United States moved to sanction the Central Bank of Iran, as part of an effort to impose an effective embargo on Iranian oil exports, the genuineness of Washington’s commitment to the free flow of Persian Gulf hydrocarbons as a global public good would be called into even more serious question, see here.
As a senior Japanese diplomat put it to us recently, the United States is really only committed to ensuring the free flow of Saudi oil to international markets. This suggests that America is only interested in providing the “public good” of energy security in ways that fit with its hegemonic ambitions in the Middle East. In the end, just how much of a public good is that?
–Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett
Empty,
I can understand that in wartime conditions, the public need to be sheltered from some bad news, for the sake of morale. With communications the way they are today, how does one edit out something that happened in a very public way? Maybe the 21 people killed did not include General Moqadem?
Vot:
I agree with Empty that it was a good list. One item to be added to it, however: peak oil. Contrary to William Engdahl who believes that fossil fuels are not fossil-based at all, and that the world therefore has practically an endless supply of the stuff, it is possible, just possible that conventional wisdom is right on this one, and that the world (and particularly Saudi Arabia) has reached and gone well past its “peak” production capacity. If this is true, then it follows that the median price for a barrel of crude for our current decade, the twenty teens, will be well over $150/ barrel, and possibly over $200/ barrel or more (mean for the whole decade). There is a strong possibility that this is or will be the case (especially with increased world demand putting upward pressure from the other end). And so, given this big-picture view, I see again the hand of Providence at work. Before the revolution, Iran’s oil production lagged behind that of Wahhabistan, but only by a million or two barrels, and there were indications that the King of Kings was going to outdo himself and try to become the first producer of crude in the world, ensuring that this God-given Bounty would be sold for three decades at prices of $20 to $40/ barrel. But as Providence would have it, Iran sold relatively little of its black gold in these past three decades, and is poised now, with its mastering of oil infrastructure technology with the ex Khatam ol-Anbiya CEO now the Minister of Oil, to sell its treasure for the *next* three decades at 10 and 20 times the price it would have otherwise gotten for it.
The peak oil crunch will also, of course, reinforce what fyi has been saying about the futility of attempting to embargo Iranian oil.
Empty,
I would welcome the news that the disaster at the base in western fringes of Tehran did not kill Gen. Mohammad Tehrani Mogadem. Despite a report to the contrary. Full stop.
Voice of Tehran,
Interesting anecdote (about Jewish school in Tehran and map showing a gargantuan Israel). In fact, Israel needs to learn to live within its pre-1967 borders. No matter how much this enrages fanatical Jewish colonists in the West Bank.
masoud,
I think Iran is making a mistake by not participating in the Vienna conference on ways and means of ridding the Middle East of nukes. And I think the Iranian delegation should not have been surprised that Russia and China supported an IAEA resolution.
Empty says:
November 20, 2011 at 7:43 am
Since you have shirked your traditional role as translator, let me give it a go:
Foolish is the gambler who whatever his losses,
Has not saved naught for the last hand
I don’t chalk this loss up to increased US diplomatic pressure. Rather, the fact that absolutely no Muslims states, and only semi-revolutionary South American nations voted with Iran in both forums points to two joint causes:
-The US struck a bargain with Russia and China to water down the resolution well in advance, in return both nations would throw their full weight behind the resolutions. The speed with which the result was achieved gives the impression of victory. If the US had initially introduced resolutions naming Iran as behind the Saudi plot, or refereed Iran to the UNSC and had walked away with these exact same resolutions, they would have been considered a resounding defeat.
-That no Muslims states have voted for Iran, and Iran has announced that in return, it will be boycotting the Middle East NPT conference it has pushed for in retaliation, tells me that the Saudi-Qatari nexus has been putting incredible pressure, mostly financial, on the moderate Arab diplomats who worked with Iran in order to establish the conference. How long this pressure can be kept up, and at what cost, remains to be seen.
Dear US – Airfoce , congratulations !!!!
Aerospace giant Boeing Co. has delivered the first batch of 30,000-pound (13.6 ton) bombs to the US Air Force to destroy underground enemy hide-outs.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/211155.html
…Many believe that disclosing the delivery of the new bunker-busting bombs less than a week after a UN nuclear agency released its latest report on Iran could be seen as a warning to the Islamic Republic…
James Canning says:
November 20, 2011 at 3:02 pm
James , just another point on this topic.
My father in law was a famous teacher in biology , teaching in Kharazmi Group back in the 60′s and 70′s in Tehran.
He was approached by some jewish friends when he was active to give private teaching lessons for selected jewish children of rich families.
He told me the story many times , but now I forgot the name of that jewish school , may be something like “Rahe Danesh” or so.
He always speaks very respectful of those times and his jewish friends , the kids etc , however there is a striking point.
In the classroom where he was teaching , there was a huge map of the NME and above the map they had written in big letters : From Nile to Euphrates and Israel was shown within those bounderies.
I will ask him for more details next time we meet.
James Canning,
RE: removing “western doubts” is an object the Iranian gov’t does engage in, for sensible reasons.
Sometimes the Iranian government may assess the situation and consider it strategically useful to engage in “removing western doubts” and sometimes the Iranian government may assess the situation and consider the “western doubts” to be not worth her time to remove. Based on the observations I have made, I do not believe that you and the Iranian government share the same definitional framework about what is “sensible”.
RE: Wouldn’t most Iranians want to know what happened?
Most Iranians believe there are ways to know things that are considered better than other ways.
RE: Both US and Soviet Union suffered catastrophic explosions of ICBMs.
How is this relevant to a false report about Iran?
RE: There would be no reason to claim Gen. Hassan Moqadem was killed in an accidental explosion of an ICBM that was being tested, if it did not happen.
Again, I am stating that truth of the claim was disputed by the very person who was reported to have been the origin of that claim. Are you suggesting that you see no reason for fabrication of some claims? Well, I don’t blame you. This never happens.
James Canning says:
November 20, 2011 at 3:02 pm
James , I was trying to say that you are absolutely right in pointing out the Greater Israel issue .
It is a paramount topic , if not the most outstanding single problem the world is facing today.
I could evaluate further , however as mentioned , I do not have a good feeling on this ‘ terrain ‘.
Voice of Tehran,
Can you clarify whether you think I want to suppress the “Greater Israel” issue, or in fact try to call attention to it?
Voice of Tehran,
I think you are missing the point entirely. That Israel is destroying its own democracy, by pursuing insane Greater Israel programme, is something that great majority of Jews in the US would oppose. The fact Israel is destroying itself is carefully concealed by dupes and stooges of the Israel lobby in the US Congress. Who do not want the American public to see just how stupid they are being, in their supposed “support” of Israel.
Iran is protesting Amano’s bias against Iran, and will not participate in the Vienna conference by IAEA on how to get rid of nukes in Middle East.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/211200.html
James Canning says:
November 20, 2011 at 1:36 pm
“The “pro-Israel” Fifth Column in the US blocks any improvement in US-Iran relations, so that fantatical Jews in the West Bank can continue their insane scheme of Greater Israel.”
Dear James , although subconsciously I always try to ignore the root and mother of all deep-set causes of current world issues , which is in deed the ‘Greater Israel’ issue , I’ll give it a try.
No matter how you would want to ‘bypass’ the GI issue , finally you end up asking yourself the same questions over and over again.
As our most esteemed Fior reminded us in endless comments about the history of Zionism , we see the Zionist GI project progressing perfectly according to plan.
Why and how ?
The reason is that it is a very long term and ‘well thought’ project stretching over centuries and generations , not subjected to elections , restrictions etc. whatsoever.
It is beyond me to draw any conclusions , but if an absolute evil power is obsessed since generations with an idea , project GI , and has all the means ( in the real sense of the word ) to get to the goal , will it ever abandon that paramount sinister dream ?
I have no answer , this is always the point , where my mind hangs ( or errors ) , I hope our esteemed Empty can evaluate further.
Empty,
Both US and Soviet Union suffered catastrophic explosions of ICBMs.
Empty,
Yes, though you are being sarcastic, removing “western doubts” is an object the Iranian gov’t does engage in, for sensible reasons.
Empty,
Wouldn’t most Iranians want to know what happened? On its face, it would appear peculiar for the report to get onto an Iranian gov’t site, and then to be deleted. If it did not happen. There would be no reason to claim Gen. Hassan Moqadem was killed in an accidental explosion of an ICBM that was being tested, if it did not happen.
I take no pleasure in the disaster. None.
…Iranians, rather.
James Canning,
RE: Yes, let’s hope the facts of the matter are established beyond doubt.
Yes, that’s what Iranian live for…removing western doubts…:)
I wonder if this latest report by Washington Post was taken from Silverstein’s “inside source” as well. Wasn’t that supposed to be the work of Mossad?
Empty,
Yes, let’s hope the facts of the matter are established beyond doubt. Amd given global publicity. (Re: cause of huge explosion west of Tehran Nov. 12th.)
James:
Do you see a future Hizbollah living on, while Iran and Syria being attacked?
We dont even know where or if weapons are being smuggled outside Libya and even if they get to Lebanon.
Karl,
Do you remember the days of the embargo against South Africa, intended to prevent SA from importing oil? To pressure white gov’t into relinquishing control. Tankers would be uplifted with oil, and sent to spot in open seas where they could meet South African tankers, and transfer the oil to them for rest of trip to South Africa. Israel was deeply involved in the scheme.
James Canning,
RE: Washington Post reports today that Gen. Hassan Tehrani Moqadem was killed Nov. 12th in explosion caused by testing an ICBM. Report confirmed by brother, Mohammad Tehrani Moqadem. (Explosion on western outskirts of Tehran.)
That is false. Mohammd Tehrani Moghadam actually openly and flatly denied last week that he had said that. It was a rumor that was started by someone pretending to be a reporter. Mohammad Tehrani Moghadam said in fact that he did not know what his brother was working on because he (Hassan) never spoke of his work.
Karl,
Regarding Iraqi oil production after the Gulf War, we should keep in mind that the country that bought the most Iraqi crude, was the USA.
Karl,
Huge amounts of arms have gone to Sinai from Libya, since revolt broke out. One might surmise the destination could be Gaza or Lebanon.
I understand Hezbollah is well stocked with arms and Israel has no great desire to take on another smashing of Lebanon.
Empty,
Oil price in Europe was up about $20/barrel due to insurrection in Libya.
Washington Post reports today that Gen. Hassan Tehrani Moqadem was killed Nov. 12th in explosion caused by testing an ICBM. Report confirmed by brother, Mohammad Tehrani Moqadem. (Explosion on western outskirts of Tehran.)
Karl,
Those are two good examples to look into. With respect to Libya, several key points you have to consider but two are of particular importance:
1) Libya’s share of about 1.5 million barrels (now is about half of that) was deemed to be easily managed (OPEC countries’ overall “cheating” and over-producing beyond their allotted share already exceeds that);
2) Libya was “primed” for 5 years (if not more) with key groups (so-called rebels) having been already trained and in position in charge of the oil fields before they went for the “kill” and finished the job. The oil began flowing right away before any real and tangible effect was noticed.
Re; Iraq,
1) Both Saudi Arabia and Iran stepped in to fill the shortage. In fact, it was at that time when Iran jumped from being 4th in OPEC oil production to 2nd. It also had more than enough capacity to do so.
2) Iran helped Iraq to ship its oil using Iranian ships, flags, etc. Also, it engaged in a swapping deal with Iraq at that time where it would buy Iraqi oil and sell similar amount of its own oil to the global market. Iran’s swapping deal was not covered under the UN sanctions against Iraq.
3) Adequate confidence does not exist on the part of other countries that Iraq will cooperate with others (as Iran did then) under similar scenarios. China knows this. That’s why the US promised China the Saudi Arabia’s oil.
These are just some examples….
James:
And where do you think Hezbollah will get its support not to mention weapons if Syria and Iran gets invaded?
Empty:
If you look how GCC handlded the libyan uprising regarding oil it went out pretty good. Also when Iraq was invaded in the 90s I guess it was the same thing?
James Canning says: November 20, 2011 at 1:55 pm
Ask them.
James Canning says: November 20, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Mr. Larijani is expressing his own opinions.
His views are not those of Mr. Khamenei.
Mr. Khamenei (and Breoujerdi and many others) never believed that rapproachment with US is possible.
Nevertheless, they let Mr. Khatami and later Mr. Ahmadinejad to try.
12 years of effort only hardened US position against Iran.
Mr. Larijani must be out of the loop in Iran.
fyi says:
November 20, 2011 at 1:45 pm
“”(God knows that Iran has its own share of religious fools).”"
I agree , but this group (not matter how radical in theory ) is not mainstream and more important can not cause disastrous havoc around the planet ,unlike their ‘counterparts ‘ in the US and Israel.
Empty,
I wonder if Reuel Marc Gerecht is actually stupid enough to believe China would switch to Iran as a sole source of oil? I think Gerecht in fact does not believe this could happen or would happen. But he is a whore of the powerful Jews seeking to damage Iran to “benefit” Israel.
fyi,
What specifically is the “expansion of Iranian power” you think is not acceptable to foolish American politicians?
Foolish American politicians think that injuring Iran will somehow “weaken” Hezbollah, and thus make it safer for Israel to continue its insane Greater Israel programme in the West Bank.
Hezbollah is not going anywhere.
Foolish American politicians need to grasp the fact Israel is greatly damaging itself with its idiotic Greater Israel scheme.
And, of course, millions of badly-educated and frankly rather stupid Christian Zionists in the US and Canada encourage Israeli oppression of the Christians and Muslims in Israel itself and on the West Bank!
VoT,
You have a good list there that covers quite a lot.
disappointed. with Obama’s failure.
fyi,
Interesting comments by Mohammad Larijani appear in New York Times today. He obviously is dissapointed that Obama performed so poorly in his efforts to improve relations between the US and Iran. But he is too diplomatic to say he knows the reason.
Karl,
RE: …but more nations that Iran got oil, they could push arab states to sell oil to these nations that are now getting its oil from Iran
It is not as simple as that:
1) Each country has a limited capacity to produce oil in the first place. They can push Saudi Arabia, for example, to produce “some” more oil but they cannot push it to produce enough to meet the existing and growing demand.
2) Dependence of more countries on fewer oil producing outlets is risky by design. In case of some anticipated as well as unanticipated problems, the very energy security of many nations that depend on oil will be at issue (think of it as an stock market approach in which “diversification” is a key to absorbing shocks).
3) The more of a particular commodity is available, the cheaper that commodity gets. The less of it is available, the more expensive it gets.
4) It would be suicidal for China to submit to relying on its source of energy behind a “locked door” the key to which is in the US hand. Historically (5000+ of history) speaking, there is not much evidence that they behave in a stupid manner.
Voice of Tehran says: November 20, 2011 at 1:36 pm
It is not just this “Cabal of Jews” etc. in US.
Nor the fools that call themselves Christian Zionists (God knows that Iran has its own share of religious fools).
But US leaders & planners have not yet absorbed or are unwilling to admit the consequences of the events of last 8 years; namely the expansion of Iranian power.
THat is all.
Voice of Tehran,
One way to foil the warmongers in US and Israel is simply to direct more attention to the concealed agenda of most of the warmongers: fostering the insane Greater Israel scheme.
As Jeffrey Goldberg observes in The New York Times today: “The majority [in Israel] is powerless in the face of the relentless [illegal] settler minority.”
Karl says: November 20, 2011 at 1:32 pm
There is not that much oil on the market that could replace the iranian oil.
And oil embargo through UNSC will not happen.
An oil embargo by US has to be enforced by US Navy; that will not happen either.
Mr. Obama has to demonstrate that he is doing something about Iran.
These are relatively cheap ways of doing so.
That is all.
Voice of Tehran,
Russia and China want to maintain the unity of the “Six Powers”, otherwise known as the P5+1. I expected both countries to back a watered-down IAEA resolution on Iran.
Russia and Iran want a negotiated resolution of the nuclear dispute.
The “pro-Israel” Fifth Column in the US blocks any improvement in US-Iran relations, so that fantatical Jews in the West Bank can continue their insane scheme of Greater Israel.
fyi says:
November 20, 2011 at 1:23 pm
“Mr. Grecht is a Jewish Partisan of Israel.”
The name of this person derives from the German word ‘ Gerechtigkeit ‘ = justice ,
thus the proposal of Mr. Grecht is all but ‘ gerecht’.
Germany’s exports to Iran will hit 4 billion Euros this year ( 2011 ).
There is a thumb rule that each billion Euros of German export secures around 20 000 direct working opps in Germany. Thus 4 billion Euros of export will secure around 100 000 working opps in Germany in one year , same for France , Italy , Spain , UK etc.
What an insane world , hijacked by idiotic stooges like Mr. ‘Justice’ , who serve their Cabal masters in the US and Israel.
This must end.
fyi:
at the same time, new sanctions will be imposed this week according to news:
“The sanctions, expected to be announced on Monday, build on existing measures against Iran’s oil and gas industry, which aim to curb foreign investment in refineries or other facilities. European nations are expected to announce similar measures when their leaders meet later in the week, the official said. ”
Thats a prelude to embargo.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/19/world/middleeast/nuclear-watchdog-seeks-consensus-on-iran.html
Fyi:
I agree with you, but more nations that Iran got oil, they could push arab states to sell oil to these nations that are now getting its oil from Iran (im a not taking about this step being implemented tommorow but it is a possibility – dont you think?). At the same time it will affect world prize on oil having an embargo, but just for a short time just like when the libyan uprising began (Then the saudi and its friends tweaked the exports regarding oil.)
I think US/Israel/UK etc will test Iran but if they see that Iran dont bow down and while at the same time they see the world economy being affected the embargo will be removed.
James Canning says: November 20, 2011 at 1:20 pm
The problem is global and each state has to determine “What Price US?”
Americans have now more limited ability to make good any and all losses incurrred by others through their Iran policy.
Note how India conformed to US demands, abrogated an oil payment mechanism, and eventually wound up paying Iran through a bank in Russia.
Or how Iran maintains large amounts of won in Korea and uses that to buy Korean goods?
And many more such things.
The siege of Iran will go on even though it degrades and erodes.
FOr US-EU there is no other choice as they are unwilling to accept Iranian strategic autonomy.
“One man’s disaster is another’s salvation” as the Russian proverb goes.
fyi,
Gerecht provides cover for powerful Jews in New York and elsewhere, who arrange for malicious stories regarding Iran in order to frighten the American people.
Gerecht claims Iran will have five nuclear weapons within six months. This obviously is an outrageous lie, but powerful Jews who know it is a vicious lie use this false claim to justify their pressure on foolish American politicians to seek new ways to injure Iran. Why? So fanatical Jews in the West Bank can continue to oppress Christians and Muslims!
I recommend Jeffrey Goldberg’s review in today’s New York Times of an excellent book that details how Israel is badly injring itself with its insane Greater Israel programme. Book is “The Unmaking of Israel” by Gershom Gorenberg.
James Canning says: November 20, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Mr. Grecht is a Jewish Partisan of Israel.
And the planet will ignore him.
fyi,
One of the difficulties faced by countries “jockeying” for their own interest, regarding the economic crisis in EU etc. (as you put it), is to determine what is in any given country’s best interests.
Clearly the ability of the US to help the EU at this time is severely limited, not least due to idiotic squandering of hundreds of billions of dollars by the Obama administration, in Iraq and Afghanistan.
fyi,
Reuel Marc Gerecht, the neocon warmonger, advocates a policy of all countries on the planet abstaining from buying oil from Iran, leaving the market solely to China, so China could pay well under market prices. Is Gerecht an idiot? Or is he giving cover to foolish American politicians who want to hurt Iran to “benefit” Israel, but want to conceal this fact from the American people?
Voice of Tehran says: November 20, 2011 at 12:08 pm
Yes, the crash of the credit bubble in US and the subsequent Euro crisis have created a situation that every state in the world is jockeying for their own interests.
Notice for example that concrete collective action by the so-called G-20 has not been forthcoming since 2007 even in the face of the worst economic crisis in 3 generations.
It is cheap and inexpensive to vote against Iran in international fora; it satisfies the American and EU demands for conformance to their rigid and uncreative policies.
It is another thing to setup structures to enforce this or that mandated sanction against Iran; that burden is left to US and EU.
In the mean-time, the World needs oil and Iran is selling it.
In regards to the Russians: they do not have the power to challenge US-EU Axis all the time, they have to be very selective in what they do.
But, in my judgement, they have no choice but to support Iranian strategic autonomy. That is essential to the security of the Russian Federation. And in over 33 years, Iranian leaders have been very careful about the exercise of Iranian power vis a vis Russia.
I do not want to be-little the US-EU Axis’s siege warfare against Iran – like all forms of warfare it harms Iran. But it won’t alter the strategic situation.
And fundamentally, as have said many times before, US-EU will fail since they only offer more war and more conflict.
Karl says: November 20, 2011 at 11:46 am
There is no mechanism that US can use to impose oil embargo on Iran that would not – at the same time – harm her allies such as India, Korea, Japan and others.
Furthermore, there were blockade runners even during the UN-imposed siege of Iraq from 1991-2001.
See, the way I see it, the world needs oil.
States in the international arena are willing to cater to US and her hare-brained polcies as long as they could envision a rapid return to the business-as-usual.
A US policy that is predicated on a long hard slug against Iran will not find very many takers.
US has to be able to paint a picture of quick and easy victory.
Consider the case of India:
Her diplomats did that in case of India when that state voted against Iran in 2006 in the IAEA meeting.
When quick resolution of the Iranian nuclear dossier did not follow – as Indians expected – they became committed to a dead-end policy that harmed their interests. They sacrificed their strategic autonomy in case of Iran for dubious nuclear goodies (undelivered as of yet.)
Other states are not blind to such things. I expect them to have drawn the necessary conclusions from this case.
fyi says:
November 20, 2011 at 11:23 am
fyi , thanks for the thoughtful assessments , I agree with you.
Multiple crises in the US/EU are unfolding merciless , which are unprecedented after WW2 and they are not going to go away , thus will thwart the plans of the Cabal elitists for full spectrum dominance. Just to name a few randomly as they are unfolding these days and weeks:
*OWS and the rapid spread of similar genuine movements from the US to tens of other countries.
What should not have happened , did occur and that is when peolple say genuinely and from the bottom of their hearts : “We have NO Fear ” , as according to ‘Plan’ , they must fear.
*US debt crisis & budget deficit and tons of related issues , which are crippling the US economy and society with absolutely no relief in sight.
*Tahrir Sq. revolts reloaded Part 3
*Downgrade of France’s credit rating from tripple A to double A in the coming days
*Spanish elections with youth unemployment over 45 %
*Greece debt crisis of more than 170 % of GDP , again no relief in sight
*Instigation of Obama to Europe to transform the ECB ( Europe’ s Central Bank ) to work in the same Ponzi Scheme mechanism as the Federal Reserve = black magic money creating , where the Cabals are experts since centuries
*Today’s summit in Moscow for a Eurasia economic zone
*The glorious come back of the real Russian bear , namely the one and only Mr. Putin
I am sure you can add to this imperfect list…..
Fyi:
Why cant US put sanctions on oil-business in Iran?
And
Why couldnt this be imposed during och before the election? Its just these things obama could use to gain his popularity. Especially for the jewish vote and lobby.
Who gains from Cynthia McKinney’s assassination?
“I like her better than any of the other bought off and paid for whores in Congress with a couple, possible exceptions. Cynthia may have one of the only member in Congress who didn’t take her marching orders from Israel which may also be why she got muscled out of the club,”Less Visible in Smoking Mirrors, January 1, 2009.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/who-gains-from-cynthia-mckinneys-assassination/
Voice of Tehran says: November 20, 2011 at 10:31 am
The Americans are trying to find an easy way of imposing an oil embarogo on Iran.
It failed against Iraq and will not work now either.
As for other dangers; due to US election cycle noithing is going to happen for the next 14 months.
The UN GA action and the IAEA actions, after all that effort and preparation, was the best that US-EU could do.
And 14 months from now, the world will have changes yet again n- but not in a helpful manner for the Axis states.
Unknown Unknowns says: November 20, 2011 at 3:36 am
Sanctions against CBI are only going to raise the price of oil for everyone; including US allies.
It will not happen.
As for all these sanctions from US & EU – what others could do – if they already have not done so – is to set up exclusive business entities that deal with Iran and do not deal with US or anyone else.
What US & EU have to then do is to chase actual commercial transactions all over the world in order to trace them and then to try to pressure this or that government to do something about it.
It is a game of hide and seek the cost of which US will try to pass on to the others.
Other international actors will indulge US and EU for a while (no more than 4 years – the election cycle) and for a variety of reasons and then stop.
Siege warfare against Iran will not be supported outside of US-EU and a few compliant states.
Empty says:
November 20, 2011 at 8:06 am
Wisely said dear Empty.
Many complex end game scenarios are unfolding at the same time , thus making it quite difficult to make predictions. Too many UU :D
I was just watching a live press conference on PressTV where the Syrian foreign minister , was gradually letting down his pants under the enormous pressure of his Arab ‘Brethren’ , plus US plus EU plus ISR.
Regarding China and Russia , I don’t think that they betrayed Iran , they did exactly what was expected from them and as Empty said , they are skillfully trying to give the almost coma-drunk the last death blow.
I do not agree with the assessment of one of the commentators who said , that Russia and China have subjugated to the Cabal One World Government (COWG) under USrael and EU leadership , they will never do that , as they know that a ‘COWG’ will lead to the destruction of mankind.
I am not saying that Russia and China are in love with Iran , however part of the end game scenario is the paramountcy of the Eurasia Region and Iran is an inseparable part of the equation , thus certainly a lot of behind the scene stuff is going on , no doubt.
There are tough weeks and months ahead of Iran and I am sure that our leaders will try everything possible to avoid any direct confrontation with the drunken Cabals , on the other hand Iranians should be well prepared for any act of aggression and we should always remember that Almigty God and the spiritual gravity of the Hidden Imam are protecting this country and the deep rooted animosity of the Cabals towards Iran is because of this very reason.
Unknown Unknowns,
Regardless of what China’s real motivation (and the ultimate outcome of this back and forth of global politics) , its siding with the US (along with all others) is an excellent development for Iran. Based on solid historical evidence (too numerous to count them all), Iranians have behaved the most remarkably and produced their most outstanding work under intense pressure (and not when things have been easy to come by). Shahnameh Ferdosi was written at the time Persian language was in comma. Boostan and Golestan Sa’adi were written at the time social morals were at their lowest. Mathnavi Ma’anavi and Koliyat_e Shams_e Tabrizi were written when the “spirit” of Quran had been sacrificed at the alter of the “mechanics” of the day-to-day rituals of the religion. “Qanat” systems were developed when rains had stopped. “Badgir” systems were developed when the rays of sunlight and heats of the desert were unrelenting. More recently, Imam Khomeini succeeded in developing in the most sophisticated mode of religious governance (and actually operationalize the whole concept) at the time “God was dead”. Iran developed its own military defense system at the time that even importing “nails” (for the fear they might be used in improvised explosive devices) to Iran were blocked.
Iran must make speedy progress in her development of drilling technology (which will also allow her to drill wells to intercept horizontal wells being developed for theft of Iran’s resources). Having China develop the South Pars, for example, would not have been useful in view of how Iranian character has manifested throughout her history, that is. Thank the Almighty for all the blessings.
Empty:
Yeah, its gotta be somethign like that, cause it does not pencil out on the surface.
Kaaseh-ee zir-e nim-kaasast…
Paul:
At first sight one might wonder why most of the world tag along with the absurd saudi-plot. Especially since there havent been a trial yet, and therefore no connection have been established even connecting Iran as a state to the alleged plot.
BUT. One must take some things in regard.
1. Media: World media have a pro-american and in this case, pro-zionist view. Iran has been labeled as the boogey man for decades. Since we live in world were superificial things are more important than complex world event for average joe, most people doesnt bother to be criticial of their news or politicians. They accept everyhing they are being fed with. Most people in the west have already a fixiated attitued towards Iran that cant change unless they start to read some books instead of keeping their ear to the mainstream media pushing anti-Iranian agenda 24/7. Its like racism. A racist have already a fixiated view/attitude to foreigners. He cant change. He may think that “Those muslims do this or that” and even when he speak with muslims or foreigners that tell differently, he assume the foreginer is lying, because the racist “know” full well how foreigners are and behave so he cant change his attitude.
Politicians and media arent intereted in whetever an incident are true or not. They are just interested to 1. find incidents, 2. connecting them to Iran, and then establish those as facts. In the western world is very easy to pit against muslims and US anti-iranian etc rhetoric just stengthen negative views about muslims. Thats why israel keep ranting about “islamic threat” 24/7 because they know people such rhetoric in europe, america etc.
2. Political power: US, west are the most influential states on earth. They have connections to every nation and could “bribe” any nation to accept their will. Now, does Iran got this possibility? No.
If one read the wikileaks cables a perverted obsession is being exposed, where US and its allies on behalf of israel blocking, preventing, bribing etc world to isolate Iran.
As for Russia and China, they are more or less on the american/israeli sides. Sure they criticize US now and then but dont do anything practical to help Iran or to stop american/israeli aggression. China is a huge letdown, they have been really quiet on Iran 2011.
Unknown Unknowns,
I think the benefit for China of helping the US to harm itself overrides the benefit for China of providing short-term support to Iran. Not to overdo with addiction metaphor, China’s role here is like that of a bartender serving alcohol to a drunk.
Richard Foltz is Founding Director of Department of Iran Studies at Concordia University in Montreal. :http://religion.concordia.ca/iranianstudies/about_us.htm
Concordia boasts that its Iran Studies department “is unique in North America.”
Foltz is a scholar of Zoroastrianism and has studied and written on the influence of Zoroaster on Judaism. He’s currently deeply involved in study and teaching of Zoroastrian and Islamic ecological practices.
University of Maryland’s Roshan Institute for Persian Studies was established in 2004 — http://www.ricps.umd.edu/index.html
VOA produced videos from the Roshan center; to my cynical mind, that suggests US government involvement with Univ. of Md.’s program.
the wikipedia entry re Foltz notes that he is second only to Richard Frye in his broad understanding of Iran. Foltz acknowledges Dr. Frye’s assistance in the first edition of Foltz’s “Religions of the Silk Road.”
masoud,
Re; your post on November 20, 2011 at 12:59 am….
When evaluating a favorable outcome, you must also consider the political cost and the amount of political/diplomatic currency that are being used to achieve that outcome. It is now appearing that the United States is behaving like a gambling addict.
At the risk of being redundant:
خنک آن قمار بازی که بباخت هر چه بودش
بنماند هیچش الا هوس قمار آخر
… which IS a country that can look beyond this quarter’s earning reports [not is not].
Thank you, Paul. Your comments, as usual, are on the money. Your observations about the subservience of the whole world with a very few exceptions are accurate. So given that, what is baffling is China’s short-sightedness. I mean if they just stand by and allow Iran to be the last domino to fall in this encirclement, they will be completely at the mercy of the US. So why the short-sightedness? After all, this is China, which is not a country that can look beyond this quarter’s earnings report. I’m baffled.
Photi,
RE: The stories have an intrinsic value in their own right and are not incidental.
Excellent comment.
It can be very difficult to understand China’s and Russia’s behavior. The global situation is as stark and dark as anything can be. The US is on a path that will have one of only TWO possible outcomes: either every nation on earth will bow to US hegemony, or there will WW3. China and Russia’s response to this has been an endless cyclical dance of pretending to resist the US’ will, followed by bowing and scraping, followed by more pretended resistance, followed by more bowing and scraping. Presumably the Chinese and Russian leadership have already decided to accept US domination, in return for a piece of the pie, and they only want to resist the US just enough to keep their own people from feeling too angry and humiliated.
If I were Syria, I wouldn’t feel very reassured by Russia’s gesture of sending protective warships into Syrian waters. Those ships can sail out as fast as they can sail in. And if I were Iran, I’d expect to be thrown under the bus by China. Think about how China handled Libya. China could have prevented UN sanction for the US’ attack on Libya, but they CHOSE not to, even though they had massive investments in Libya. China may have more of a stake in Iran than in Libya, for various reasons, but basically the principle is the same; when the US says “jump”, China hops.
What is so startling in global affairs today is the way every country in the world goes along with the relentless US accusations against other countries, even though everyone knows they have little or no merit. Almost the entire UN General Assembly went along with the ‘Saudi Plot’ accusations against Iran, even though they are flagrant bs. Yet when Iran has legitimate accusations against the US, no one takes them seriously. Why does most of the world agree to these kinds of double standards?
Well, I guess that’s what happens when you have more military and economic power than any other country. Might makes Right, as they say. But do you look forward to living in a world ruled without restraint by US/Nato elites? I don’t.
fyin or anyone else:
I can see how the Uncle Angel withholding WTO membership from Russia is a big disincentive preventing her normalization of trade relations (breaking the sanctions), but I don’t understand why China, who had signed large investment contracts in upstream oil and gas development projects with Iran *despite* the sanctions (Yadavaran and South Pars according to a lengthy report on Iran-China relations by the Leveretts) would start dragging its feet to where both contracts have now been annulled. Do you know what the source of Angelic power over China is in this case?
Also, how do you see the blockade breaking down in the future? At the rate things are going in the Zionist Occupied Government of Uncle Angel, a bill will shortly be passed making it illegal for foreign companies (such as the Chinese and German and Italian) to do business with Iran’s Central Bank. This would be yet another act of war, in a long line of many such acts, but with the difference that Iran could no longer ignore it. It would be an oil embargo. What is Iran’s reaction likely to be? How are China, India and Japan likely to react to such a development?
masoud says: November 20, 2011 at 12:59 am
A tiny skirmish in siege warfare.
[You have to learn to ignore noises; such as when Chinese Government sent the tanks to roll over protestors in Tien An Man square.]
Credit where credit is due: The United States has won the most recent round of diplomatic oneupsmanship with Iran. It was able to rout get anti-Iran resolutions through both the UNGA and the IAEA BOG with comfortable margins. It managed this feat in large part by preemptively watering down its own resolutions. The UN resolution does not accuse Iran of any wrongdoing, although it does urge it to cooperate with the investigation, and the IAEA resolution never contained any references to UNSC or follow up action. Nonetheless, these votes created the sought-after ‘atmospherics’. To me this move is Signature Obama. Whether this strategy of preemptive concessions turns out to be any more effective in the long term on the international stage than it has on the domestic stage remains to be seen. But what is really surprising is where Iran’s hardcore support on the international stage comes from. Here is a list of the nine countries who voted along side Iran against the UN resolution:”Cuba, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Armenia, Zambia, North Korea”. It seems that(NK aside) the supporters of our Shi’ite state are all Christian, mostly Catholic.
Thanks, Rd.
It is amazing to me how an otherwise intelligent man such as Charlie Rose completely fails to grasp the actual situation with regard to the nuclear issue. Larijani could not have been clearer. Yet, Rose simply was unable to understand the basic situation as Larijani presented it, and he (Rose) continued to interrupt to the point of unintelligibility.
Some might find little things of interest in this 2011 Rand monograph.
http://books.google.co.th/books?id=9PVsY2xeNHoC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=algar+larijani&source=bl&ots=buB_NnyWOH&sig=si4vezc6pgOpNEKcSel6nrPYwEc&hl=en&ei=NnnITpqCHoj4rQfEs-yeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=algar%20larijani&f=false
Photi:
That’s not what I meant. What I mean to say is that the limits of discourse within at least the outward meaning of the Koran are those discourses which would make sense to the Prophet’s audience at the time. So, for example, trigonometry and calculus, to chose a couple of silly examples, would not be included, as these would be incomprehensible to the target audience, as it were. Now given those limits of discourse, of course the prophets of the Israelites play a huge role, as they demonstrate the unicity of revelation back to Adam, with whom be peace.
The fact that Moslem scholarship by and large, be it in the Golden Age or presently, has failed to extrapolate from those early limits, and not just in terms of the divine nature of the other prophets sent to humanity, is an abject symptom, in my view, of the failure of the Prophet’s project and ministry. The original project was to have freedom of choice in religion (la ikraaha fid-din); the original project was one of the emancipation of women. Of course in both these particular examples, his community succeeded relative to Christianity. But because the community erred very early on after his death, and actually upon his death, in the appointment of his successor, and because the Shi’a community similarly went astray early on, the community today looks nothing like it should were his project to have succeeded.
This last point will be of interest to VoT: my critique of the community is severe and as radical, say, as fyi’s. The difference is that I recognize that as flawed as our community is (and it is deeply, deeply flawed), it is the only one we have. And so, even at the best of times, one has to moderate one’s criticism to that level which matches but does not exceed the community’s ability to absorb and assimilate it (lest on become an outsider – a kharijite). This warning is doubly in effect when the community is under attack, which of course, it has been and continues to be. So I am glad to see that the prescribed meds are bearing fruit ;o)
This is not the first time someone has refused to play against an Israeli. A match between an Iranian player and Israel’s Lern Melakhy also did not take place.
Egyptian Taekwondo Player Refuses to Compete with Israeli
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/egyptian-taekwondo-player-refuses-to-compete-with-israeli/
Dr Larijani was on Rose as well.. good conversation;
http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/7012
kooshy says:
“I watched the full version of Davis U video at the end police retracted and student stood up.”
—————
Perhaps we may get to experience the poetic justice when a red blue and white color revolution brings about a regime change..
Unknown Unknowns,
You said:
“The reason for the reference to the Jewish prophets is that those were the names that the people of Mecca and Medina had heard and were familiar with.”
Based on this i inferred that the reason the Prophets in the line of Isaac were included in the Quran is a reason that was dependent on the immediate environment of the Hijaz at the time of Muhammad and had nothing to do with the specific history of the Jews as revealed to Muhmammad. The reason for the inclusion in the Quran of those Prophets who were Jews is then incidental (as i understand your statement).
However, based on the Quranic stories that surround Abraham as the Patriarch of the Monotheists and the additional Prophets springing from him, the preservation of the Jewish stories in the Quran appears to have more significance than simply being the stories with which the Meccans could relate.
The stories have an intrinsic value in their own right and are not incidental.
I am unhappy with my logic in the question i directed to you about Muhammad being Arab and would like to drop it at this time.
Unknown Unknowns says:
November 19, 2011 at 8:39 pm
That’s not what I mean at all, I am not exited with race, I wouldn’t make a dim different which one of this puppets is in or not, what I am excited about is the younger generation which their energy was contained by Obama last election, and is now demandingly on the loose and on daily bases is rising up against the system, which I think this time no one can contain even Ralph Nader. So we are all in for show…. Down.
I watched the full version of Davis U video at the end police retracted and student stood up.
Karl says:
November 19, 2011 at 7:47 pm
I agree. I don’t understand why James keeps dragging Saudi Arabia into the discussion, even with regard to the Palestinian. I don’t think Iran even cares what the Saudi monarchy complains about with regard to Iran’s progress. If it is not the nuclear program, they will complain about something else. And the reason for that is that the saudi monarchy is afraid of Iran being an example of a muslim country which has advanced without giving in to the west demands as the Saudis do. The Saudi monarchy is afraid of its own people looking up to Iran as an example. That’s all. It has nothing to do with nuclear proliferation. Look, against all the historical and international proofs, the Saudis cannot still absorb that the waterway between Iran and Saudi Arabia is called “Persian” Gulf. It’s been Persian Gulf before Saudi Arabia even existed.
Regarding the palestinian; all the saudis are doing is simply just for their internal consumption, and they do it as far as the US allows them to do. Nothing more. As I said before, if the Saudis push the issue of the palestian seriously, it will take the US just to begin talking about democracy in Saudi Arabia to shut the Saudis down. This is how the monarchy in Saudi Arabia live and operate. The monarchy is nothing without the support from the west, esp. the US.
Dear James, please do not give undue credits to the monarchy in Saudi Arabia. I am sure you know them better.
Photi says:
November 19, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Not sure what you mean. Care to elaborate? And how did you read ‘incidental’ into my comment?
Kooshy:
Regarding the upcoming elections, I think it is Ron Paul’s presence that makes the race potentially exciting. If you take him out of the equation, there is very little difference between the current clown in the White House and all the other clowns contending on the republican side.
Interestingly, I think Ron Paul is going to hit it out of the park in Iowa and New Hampshire, and then it will be interesting to see how that momentum will play out in South Carolina.
On the importance of Prophet Abraham from a Muslim perspective, i found this to be interesting:
“However, if one were forced to identify a historical landmark in human history, there is the unique figure of Abraham, who through his whole‑hearted devotion to God changed the course of human history. The Quran refers to Abraham as hanif (3:67, 3:95. 4:125, 16:123), khalill (4:125), ummah (16:120), imam (2:124), and His chosen one (3:33), in whose descent God promised to bless all nations of mankind according to the Bible. If we may talk of an axis of anthropogenesis, here we may locate it, in the light of both the Bible and the Quran.”
http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/islam_christianity/8.htm
Clint says: UU, next the police will ride in on camels…..
True, and that certainly was a bizarre scene out of Egypt, where, overall, the uniformed police acted in a much more civilized manner, and allowed the citizenry peaceably to assemble. In Oakland the cops went apeshit because, they said, they wanted to make sure the park was kept clean. Lying scum.
JAMES
“If Iran was in fact surprised that Russia and China backed the latest IAEA resolution, it may have been because the Iranian delegation was not giving sufficient weight to that element of equation (Russian and Chinese opposition to Iranian nukes).”
Its rather that money talks (US give China, Russia etc great incentives). China and Russia dont buy the american/israeli narrative therefore there is a compromise. You know, if it wasnt for chinese/russian refusal to tag along with more sanctions etc well…then there would have been sanctions full stop long time ago.
“You seem to think that the hostility between Iran and Saudi Arabia is a good thing. In fact, it helps Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians.”
Why do you draging up the palestinians all of a suddden?
1. Saudi have never cared about palestinians. Dont you get it? Its regime was put in place with the help of UK and are one of west biggest allies. Saudi legitimicy is based on the 24/7 support by the US.
2. Saudi and iranian issues have nothing to do with the palestinians. There is no point trying to whitewash Saudi arabia taking in regard their stance to Iran.
Unknown Unknowns says:
November 19, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Unknown Unknowns,
By your logic is it also possible to conclude that placing Muhammad (pbuh) in Arab society was also incidental?
It seems to me that Jews and Arabs being the children of Isaac and Ishmael is why Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (may God’s peace be upon them) have been highlighted by Islam.
Look at this:
‘IAEA claims against Iran laughable’
http://presstv.com/detail/211033.html
Iranian rep. gets interviewd on american mainstream media!
However note the degrading tone the american have towards the man. Dont they have any shame really? These people have so much hate for arabs, iranians and muslims its disguting. Racism.
Also note the typical warmongering lies by haas:
“Iran is experiment with explosives” Yes they do with NANOexplosives you dummy!
I recommend Philip Giraldi’s “Nonsense from The New York Times”:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/
Quote: “There are apparently some Americans who are so interested in bringing about a war with Iran that they are willing to do or say anything to achieve that aim.”
One of warmongers being promoted by the NYT is Reuel Marc Gerecht.
On November 17, 2011, the University of St. Andrew Union Debating Society (Scotland) held a discussion on motion “This House Would Resort to War to Prevent a Nuclear Iran“. The motion was defeated by about 90% to 10%……
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/st-andrew-motion-war-on-iran-defeated/
Karl,
I see Saudi Arabia as the Arab country most able to help the Palestinians to achieve at least minimum justice. Meaning, Israel out of West Bank. I think many people who post on this site attack Saudi Arabia and reflect what I think is inadequate consideration of the need to maintain unity, as far as possible, in effort to get Israel out of West Bank.
Karl,
If Iran was in fact surprised that Russia and China backed the latest IAEA resolution, it may have been because the Iranian delegation was not giving sufficient weight to that element of equation (Russian and Chinese opposition to Iranian nukes).
You seem to think that the hostility between Iran and Saudi Arabia is a good thing. In fact, it helps Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinians.
Clint,
Thanks for link to Gareth Porter’s story (“Ex-Inspector Rejects IAEA Iran Bomb Test Chamber Claim”).
Unknown Unknowns says:
November 19, 2011 at 5:36 pm
This would be the 10th US presidential election I would be closely observing, and I would bet by far it will be the most exciting one I have seen so far
Empty,
Slant drilling from Kuwait was one of the issues Saddam Hussein objected to, in months prior to the Iraqi invasion in 1990. Iraq claimed its oil was being drawn from Kuwait.
Photi says, “Doesn’t this Muslim respect for the Jewish Prophets indicate the Jews have played a special role in human civilization? ”
The reason for the reference to the Jewish prophets is that those were the names that the people of Mecca and Medina had heard and were familiar with. If the Prophet started to talk about Zoroaster or the Buddha or Confucius or Lao Tsu or Socrates and Plato or of the enlightened prophets of the Americas or Africa, his audience would not know what he is talking about. It would be crazy talk.
This is the shorter version showing just the pepper spray. Incredible. And even more outrageous is that nothing is going to be done about that pig’s outrageous behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gim_pqUAKcc
UU, next the police will ride in on camels…..
one’s breath away, rather….
LOL
Unknown Unknowns,
Those pepper sprays are a killer when inhaled. It literally takes one breath away (not to mention eye and nose burning for hours).
…depending on, rather.
Uncle Angel’s goons in action against peaceful protestors. At about 0:40, the footage shows a truly disturbing scene, and how the police in the US have utter contempt for the people who they are supposed to “serve and protect”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBk1ogP18K0
Photi,
Thank you for the clarification about the use of the word “Nur”.
RE: “….Islam teaches that there have been 124,000 Prophets (as) over the course of human history. Of all these, when God brought the final Message in the form of Islam, it was the stories of the Jewish Prophets he chose to preserve and correct.”
I can only refer to Quran and say that based on my limited understanding of the related verses, that is not how those stories are characterized. In fact, no prophet is characterized as a “Jewish Prophet” not even Hazrat Moses (a.s.). Here is a clear verse about Hazrat Ebrahim (Abraham) (a.s.), for example [translation/interpretation of Chapter 3, Verses 65-67]:
“O people of the scripture, why do you argue about Abraham, weren’t Torah and Gospel revealed after him? Do you not think critically [65]? You have disputed in the past about things you knew but why are you disputing about things that you do not know? God knows while you do not know [66]. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian; he was a monotheist who submitted [was Muslim] to God and was never an idol worshiper. [67].”
As far as I know, no prophet is copyrighted for any particular religion and all prophets (from Hazrat Adam (a.s.) to Hazart Muhammad (s.s.a.)) are all labeled as “submitters to God” [i.e. Muslims] this includes Prophet Moses (a.s.).
RE: Doesn’t this Muslim respect for the Jewish Prophets indicate the Jews have played a special role in human civilization?
I am not sure if I understand what you mean here. By Muslim respect, do you mean books, writings, references, etc. used by Muslim scholars? Re; “special role in human civilization,” do you believe this to be in Quran? I have not seen this but would appreciate a reference. As I have understood, “civilization” is quite a loaded term that carries its own meaning in human history (depending in who is talking about it) which is quite different than how Quran looks at human societies.
RE: the point I was trying to make was that ‘chosen’ in a religious context is a responsibility and not a privilege.
I see.
Real News on Iran’s nuclear program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2hcZSRAC3k
Another dated but quite relevant topic:
“The world’s biggest gas field is shared between Iran, which calls its share South Pars, and Qatar, owner of the North Field (also known as the North Dome)”
From: http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/07/26/us-northfield-qatar-idUSTRE66P1VV20100726
RE: the “geopolitics of energy” (as outlined in the thread)
Non-vertical [also called directional] drilling has been used to drill wells at an angle underground (other than vertical) in order to hit targets and stimulate reservoirs in ways that can not be achieved with a vertical well. This method allows for a reservoir to be tapped if the reservoir is located underneath an “unreachable”/”forbidden” area/ location by drilling a well located in the drilling pad on the edge of the “forbidden location” at an angle that will intersect the reservoir.
The United States does not need to occupy a country. What it actually does is it creates conditions that a given country cannot develop and export its own gas, for example. This will ensure that the reserves remain untouched (more or less). Then it sets up shop in a neighboring country (let’s say Qatar) and siphons out the gas. It’s rather simple.
For more information about this, feel free to explore the USGS website. In particular, look at 2000+ global regions that are assessed by the new U.S. geological survey method for the assessment of reserve growth [1], for example. Once you have a solid assessment, then follow what I would call “doughnut” strategy: surround a particularly “difficult area” and then empty the middle part of any “dough” (no pun intended). Look at Libya and Tunisia “provinces” for another example: “Using a geology-based assessment methodology, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated means of 3.97 billion barrels of undiscovered oil, 38.5 trillion cubic feet of undiscovered natural gas, and 1.47 billion barrels of undiscovered natural gas liquids in two provinces of North Africa.”
Note: Reserve growth is defined as the estimated increases in quantities of crude oil, natural gas, and natural gas liquids that have the potential to be added to remaining reserves in discovered accumulations through extension, revision, improved recovery efficiency, and additions of new pools or reservoirs.
==============================================================================
Sources:
For more information about “directional/horizontal drilling” see: ;http://geology.com/articles/horizontal-drilling/
For raw data to use to create your own maps (there are shape files and you could a GIS software to map them), see: ;http://energy.usgs.gov/OilGas/AssessmentsData/WorldPetroleumAssessment.aspx
For information about new assessment methods for oil and gas “recoverable” reserves (as opposed to the traditional “proven reserve”, see: ;Klett et al, at: ;http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2011/5163/
For 2010 oil and gas assessment report on Tunisia and Libya, see: ;http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2011/3105/pdf/FS11-3105.pdf
Gareth Porter has a new article on that non nuclear nuclear scientist:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=105901
All:
On China:
http://128.59.48.24/cu/polisci/pdf-files/BeckleyWritingSamp.pdf
You need to follow the money on the IAEA:
http://www.iaea.org/About/Policy/GC/GC54/GC54Documents/English/gc54-7_en.pdf
see who contributes the most? the agency is biased towards that donor.
Simple
JAMES
“We should keep in mind that both Russia and China oppose any possession of nuclear weapons by Iran. Not least because it would almost guarantee Saudi Arabia would get nukes.”
I dont know why you keep repeating this and also your permanent interest to defend saudi arabian interest.
USG doing propaganda with military $:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/18/world/us-military-goes-online-to-rebut-extremists.html
fyi,
The very considerable rate of intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews in the US will in time blur the distinction. Rate now is nearly 60% according to Norman Finkelstein.
It is indeed sad that fanatical Jews in teh US have done so much damage to the national security interests of the US, and in fact of European people as well. Compliant news media played a huge role is fostering the damage and protecting the perpetrators of that damage.
James Canning says: November 19, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Yes, God truned their tricks against them – perhaps to sustain the experiment called the Islamic Republic of Iran.
One could only hope for continued help of Providence.
James Canning says: November 19, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Yes, you are right.
That is why I pity them.
For they have managed to harm their long-term status in a polity that has been welcoming to Jews by advancing the interests of another state.
While non-Jews in America accept a certain amount of emotional attachment to the ancestral countries as a matter of course, they equally (implicitly) demand loyalty to the United States.
Very many Jewish partisans of Israel have crossed that line, in my opinion.
[The Christian partisans of Israel have more options to walk back; they are not a small easily identifiable minority.]
James Canning says: November 19, 2011 at 1:54 pm
Franco and Bismarck were true conservatives.
American conservatives are not so, they are most charitably may be classified as proto-fascists.
fyi,
Another relevant fact: Jews (and others) were once largely able to conceal the various conspiracies that were engaged in, to “benefit” Israel while harming the national security interests of the American people. Before the internet made keeping these things secret much more difficult.
fyi,
Consider some facts: EU under tremendous financial stress, not least due to casino banking in the US, pervasive white collar crime promoted in effect by G W Bush administrations. And US far less able to help EU, due to idiotic wars conducted by US, and largely set up by fanatical Jews G W Bush was so stupid as to allow to be placed in crucial power positions!
All:
Full text of Chinese Premier Wen’s statement at 14th China-ASEAN Summit
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/18/c_131255936.htm
This is to be contrasted with US-EU declarations on the Middle East.
Draw your own conclusions.
fyi,
Great comment by George F. Kennan, testifying before US Senate, in opposition to idiotic Vietnam War: “There is more respect to be won in the opinion of this world by a resolute and courageous liquidation of unsound positions than by the most stubborn pursuit of extravagant or unpromising objectives.” (Quoted in Rachman’s FT review of new Kennan biography.)
fyi,
Yes, of course the siege of Iran WILL NOT end in a few months or even a year. It COULD END within that time frame, but won’t. Not least due to relentless stupidity of American leaders regarding how best to deal with Iran. And this relentless stuoidity is driven in large part by Israel lobby (and grossly ignorant and rather foolish Christian Zionists and other supposedly “conservative” Americans).
James Canning says: November 19, 2011 at 12:59 pm
The siege of Iran by US-EU will not end in months.
It could erode over the next few years, however.
James,
As Fiorangela did, let me thank you for the link to Andrew Bacevich’s article. This passage pretty much sums up the basis for my belief that Iran should not bother working toward some “grand bargain” with the United States until the United States has recognized reality a bit more than it apparently has so far (and until a bit more of that new reality has occurred):
PASSAGE FROM BACEVICH ARTICLE:
The “postwar world” brought into existence as a consequence of World War II is coming to an end. A major redistribution of global power is underway. Arrangements that once conferred immense prerogatives upon the United States, hugely benefiting the American people, are coming undone.
In Washington, meanwhile, a hidebound governing class pretends that none of this is happening, stubbornly insisting that it’s still 1945 with the so-called American Century destined to continue for several centuries more (reflecting, of course, God’s express intentions).
Here lies the most disturbing aspect of contemporary American politics, worse even than rampant dysfunction borne of petty partisanship or corruption expressed in the buying and selling of influence. Confronted with evidence of a radically changing environment, those holding (or aspiring to) positions of influence simply turn a blind eye, refusing even to begin to adjust to a new reality.
END OF PASSAGE FROM BACEVICH ARTICLE.
Link to Bacevich article:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/big-change-whether-we-like-it-or-not/
James Canning says: November 19, 2011 at 1:21 pm
China and Russia are jealous of their status as nuclear-armed states.
And they voted for a resolution that does not make any material difference to the Iranian nuclear case.
That is all.
Saudi Arabia has zero chance of going nuclear; she does not have what it takes to do so.
Only Egypt and Algeria could do so – in principle and with a lot of effort.
Karl,
Apparently the Iranian delegation to latest IAEA meeting thought Russia and China would not support the resolution calling upon Iran to allow more inspections.
We should keep in mind that both Russia and China oppose any possession of nuclear weapons by Iran. Not least because it would almost guarantee Saudi Arabia would get nukes.
Rehmat,
Kissinger and Nixon both recognised the conflict of interest that tended to obtain, when Jews were involved in making American policy in Middle East. Kissinger and Nixon clearly were correct in this assessment, and the disastrous G W Bush administration demonstrated how clearly correct Nixon and Kissinger were. What utter lunacy, to put a team of neocon Jews in charge of the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans! While yet another neocon Jew was chairman of the Defence Policy Board (of the Pentagon)! Stupidity on part of G W Bush and Condoleezza Rice, almost beggaring belief.
Rehmat,
Surely Henry Kissinger was quite right to say that the emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union was not an object of US foreign policy. Henry M. Jackson’s team of fanatical Jews- -the original neocons – - forced through the Jackson-Vanik amendment (which pressured USSR into allowing “Jewish” emigration). Part of Jackson’s effort to get into the White House.
fyi,
Iran probably could end the so-called “siege” within a few months or perhaps a year.
fyi,
What is your notion of “surrender” by Iran? Ceasing production of 20% U? Allowing the inspections sought by IAEA?
Karl,
The missile shield is largely a scam in any event. Yet another way to hose the American taxpayers for unnecessary weapons.
Gideon Rachman has an excellent review of new biography of George F. Kennan (by J L Gaddis) in Financial Times today. Quote: “Testifying before the Senate about his opposition to the Vietnam war, [Kennan] skewered one of the more persistent and pernicious ideas in US foreign policy – - the notion thaat American ‘credibility’ depends on pursuing any conflict, however mistaken, until victory has been achieved.”
UK sold chemical weapons to Gaddafi
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/210950.html
FBI hires spies to fake terror plots
The Guardian reported that the terrorist plots “came from the FBI, and an informant paid to pose as a terrorist mastermind paying big bucks for help in carrying out an attack.”
Drug dealer David Williams was one of the victims of the FBI plot. In May 2009, he was rearrested and handed a 25-year jail sentence.
Williams and three others were convicted of an Islamic terrorist plot to blow up Jewish synagogues and shoot down military jets with missiles.
Critics say the FBI is running a sting operation across America, targeting — to a large extent — the Muslim community by luring people into fake terror plots.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/210948.html
Empty,
Regarding the use of the word “Nur” at Richard Silverstein’s, blog, Islam teaches that there have been 124,000 Prophets (as) over the course of human history. Of all these, when God brought the final Message in the form of Islam, it was the stories of the Jewish Prophets he chose to preserve and correct. Doesn’t this Muslim respect for the Jewish Prophets indicate the Jews have played a special role in human civilization?
The point I was trying to make was that ‘chosen’ in a religious context is a responsibility and not a privilege.
EUs missile shield might be postponed due budget deficit.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-budget-woes-could-hit-european-missile-defense-090321182.html
Photi,
This is a continuation of discourse on racism relevant to your post at Silverstein’s site which began under the previous thread.
To complete the last segment of part I, I believe racism cannot be comprehensively and fully explored unless we also talk about statements/narratives that highlight the concept of “privilege”/ “racial privilege” in conjunction with statements/narrative that assert/imply some sort of “racial inferiority.” I think the statement you used (in your comments there) was “Nur” [Light] perhaps to highlight/appeal to/ address a position of “exception” and “privilege” or perhaps “chosen status” for people of Jewish decent (if I am not mistaken in my interpretation, that is) as a form of “guiding light” (positive connotation) more than an “example” and “lesson” for humanity. Please do correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation of your choice of the word “Nur”. Putting (temporarily) aside what you may have meant, however, this narrative exists and requires its own deconstruction.
A 1995 film titled “White Man’s Burden” [title borrowed from Kipling’s poem] is an interesting production that tries to illustrate the issue of “white privilege” by showing a “position reversal” where black is the “privileged” class and “white” is a suppressed class. If you haven’t watched it, I recommend it as it does (though neither comprehensively nor too deeply) illustrates what would be labeled as [material] “privilege”. An interesting paper that examines that movie based on Critical Race Theory has been published in the Journal of Communication Law Review by T.M. Harris and K. Weber titled, “Reversal of Privilege: Deconstructing Imperialism, Racism, and Power in the Film White Man’s Burden.” [1] I have linked the article below.
My recommendation to explore this concept as well is to gain better understanding of the language of “privilege” cage has been built in the racism literature using hardwires of materialism and an exclusively materialistic vision of the world. That is, human birds of various feather could/should/would/are capable of/must soar high and wide (together if we are very enlightened) to the edges of material cage (but not beyond). In fact, there is no (and there shan’t be any) beyond (in this worldview) but noting it would serve as an introduction to the 3rd part of my argument.
The Journal of Mass Media Ethics also houses some very interesting articles on the topic. One article I recommend (nicely written and flows easily) is titled “An Ethical Exploration of Free Expression and the Problem of Hate Speech” by M. Slagle [2]. The following is an excerpt from this article:
[OPEN QUOTE] Opponents of hate speech take issue with the classical libertarian approach that American jurisprudence utilizes when dealing with matters of free expression. These opponents, many of whom identify themselves as critical race theorists, argue that the legal framework that permits these messages does not acknowledge the imbalance of power that exists within American society. The groups that usually are singled out by hate speech, they note, are often groups that have been the subject of official and unofficial persecution……….[t]hey still suffer from disparities in education, healthcare, and employment. When hate speech is allowed to demean, denigrate, or silence these groups, critics argue, this imbalance of power is further perpetuated and the promise of equality under the law is made hollow. [END QUOTE]
Another quote from the same article also highlights the question of “intent”:
[OPEN QUOTE] In fact there is no means whereby anyone can reasonably sort out hateful speech from legitimate discussion. Thoughtful, reasoned criticism can also be devastating to its subjects, but that does not make it hate speech. The distinction between the two is in the speaker’s purpose, something not always easily ascertained. This has not stopped authorities at universities and elsewhere from trying to determine the intent of a speaker’s utterance. They are in effect placing the speaker’s state of mind on trial.[END QUOTE]
I would like to use a couple more of the excerpts from this article to illustrate the shortcoming of a seemingly thorough analysis of universally libertarian versus Kantian arguments reviewed by this article:
[OPEN QUOTE] Absent this, the critics frequently retreat to the realm of metaphor and imagery: words that wound, assaultive speech and so on. The line of reasoning that this supposed connection represents is fallacious. In responding to the words of a law school professor who equates words with bullets, Rauch (1993) writes: “My own view is that words are words and bullets are bullets, and that it is important to keep this straight. For you do not have to be Kant to see what comes after ‘offensive words are bullets’: if you hurt me with words, I reply with bullets, and the exchange is even.” [END QUOTE]
The most obvious omission here is the very real possibility (and far more realistic scenario) in which the same group that controls the hate speech also controls the bullets.
[OPEN QUOTE] Another argument that frequently arises is that of the uneven playing field: the minority groups who are the usual targets of hate speech have been so marginalized by society’s dominant groups that they cannot compete equally within the arena of ideas. Without regulation, reasoned debate will become impossible. Some kind of accommodation is needed lest the “bad” speech drive out the “good.” Such an assertion flies in the face of recent history. Even as the critical race theorists have grown more influential, the groups whose speech they seek to regulate have become ever less powerful. The ideologies of racism and anti-Semitism are thoroughly discredited in most of Western society. Even in cases where hurtful messages do not yet receive the same level of social opprobrium, for example, homophobic language, the very nature of the libertarian model suggests that such speech will eventually fall out of favor. Reasoned discourse is far more persuasive than thoughtless name-calling. Words are undoubtedly powerful things; they can glorify and exalt or denigrate and shame. They can comprise brilliant novels and crass jokes. They are the very building blocks of human intellectual achievement, but they are not weapons. They do not maim or kill. Instead they contribute to the complex and ongoing discussion that moves society forward.[OPEN QUOTE]
The above quote (my last one in this series) also does not address the following: it is in the lag time between “hate speeches” and the eventual “falling out of favor” of such speeches that the most gruesome atrocities are committed against the vulnerable populations (historically speaking, of course).
This ends part I of looking at evaluation of racism in statements (through an academic lens). Will work on the 2nd part when I get another chance (sorry Photi for dragging this on but I think there is a dynamic conversation going on any way).
===============================================================================
Sources:
[1] Harris & Weber article, at: ;http://commlawreview.org/Archives/CLRv10i1/PDFs/Reversal_of_Privilege_Deconstructing_Imperialism_Racism_and_Power_in_the_Film_White_Mans_Burden.pdf
[2] Slagle article at: ;http://journalismethics.info/JMME-Ethical%20Exploration%20of%20Free%20Expression.pdf
fyi:
I dont know for how long the siege will last but after the siege an attack will eventually come.
Fiorangela,
Please let me take this opportunity to say that you should not take my usual lack of response to your posts as a non-response. I always assume you are part of the discussion so if what you do is ‘meddling’ then i am all for it.
The truth is that most of the time you are schooling me big-time and i feel any response on my part would be completely inadequate, thus the non-rebuttal.
Karl says: November 19, 2011 at 6:50 am
Iran is partially isolated and under siege.
The whole idea of the siege was to bring about Iranian surrender – just like siege warfrae in olden times.
When that did not happen quickly, US-EU Axis have settled for a prolonged partial siege.
In the international arena, power and legitimacy go hand in hand.
As US-EU power endures, so will the siege of Iran.
And as that power ebbs, with it will the siege of Iran.
I really do not expect any change in this; Iranians are self-sufficient in many areas and a partial siege – alreay eroding – will not bering them down.
And they have many tactical options; e.g. the can announce that they will freeze uranium enrichment for a certain period of time.
The access to the world markets via friendly states and through teh sales of oil are huge gaps also in the siege of Iran.
The committment to the siege of Iran is testament to US-EU’s determination to eliminate, constrict, or otherwise limit Iranian strategic autonomy.
You could tell by the momentum of sanctions-for-sanctions case.
But ask yourself Mr. Karl: will Iran be under siege 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now?
When will the siege have disintegrated?
Photi, pardon me for meddling in your conversation with Unknown Unknowns.
You wrote (very wisely):
“Correcting Zionist sins by reversing history will do nothing but cause more hate and suffering. Absolutely, justice for past and current generations must be sought, but in the process those seeking a just peace also have to be aware of the impact that peace will have on future generations. If the ’solution’ to the conflict sows the seeds of yet more conflict, then a solution to the conflict has not really been found.”
They are hard words to read, when the blood is up, but wise.
The Rwandese attempted to find a middle ground — a Truth and Reconciliation process. I don’t know the particulars of that process, and it’s worth pointing out that while you spoke of “justice and peace,” in Rwanda, the goals were Truth and Reconciliation.
No, history cannot be reversed, but its truths must be permitted to be openly explored. I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that zionism is as rabid as it is today because it is built on a mountain of deceit. As well, US foreign policy is as “schizophrenic and incoherent” as it is because its foundation is a false narrative, not objectively confronted and analysed facts and truths. Therefore, I maintain that while history cannot and should not be reversed, the truth must be told, fearlessly, by all sides.
But, since history must not be reversed, the results of that truth-telling project must not result in recriminations but in reconciliation.
Since the conflict between the Hutus and the Tutsis revolved around claims that one group had greater worth than the other, I would assume that the fundamental truth that emerged from the Truth telling part of the Rwanda project was the recognition that All Men Are Created Equal. Neither Hutus nor Tutsis have greater claim to rights as human beings with equal power. The U.S. is probably the world’s worst guarantor of equal human rights because of its massive power: unable to refrain from taking sides, any side the U.S. takes vitiates the power base of the other. Each side of a conflict must be granted the neutral space to speak its truth–and that truth must comport with reality, not with a preferred narrative.
Truth and Reconciliation.
Unknown Unknowns,
Those who desire peaceful co-existence are never willing to do the dastardly things the warmongers are willing to do in order to achieve their respective or dis-respective aims.
Correcting Zionist sins by reversing history will do nothing but cause more hate and suffering. Absolutely, justice for past and current generations must be sought, but in the process those seeking a just peace also have to be aware of the impact that peace will have on future generations. If the ‘solution’ to the conflict sows the seeds of yet more conflict, then a solution to the conflict has not really been found.
The bulwark of the Resistance cannot be altered until the immediate environment shifts towards co-existence. Taunting the Jews (as opposed to calling Israel out on its massive pile of bull shit) is not likely the best way to achieve that shift. I would say this blog and others represent the immediate environment and not the bulwark and so therefore our language should reflect that.
One of the last interview El’Baradei gave before leaving office:
SZ: Mr ElBaradei, you have announced that you are leaving. What qualities and qualifications must your successor have?
ELBARADEI: It is not important what country he or she comes from and I hope the decision is not based on geographical considerations or similar, traditional UN criteria. Independence is undoubtedly the most important thing. The Agency sits in judgement on governments, which is fairly unique. That means there is a great deal of pressure from all sides. The person in question must be entirely independent and objective. Secondly, he or she must be acquainted with the full spectrum of issues we deal with, from development to security policy. And he or she must be a manager. I have 2500 staff to manage, and relations with 145 Member States with conflicting interests. And a little diplomatic skill would help too.
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/transcripts/2008/sz250908.html
Israel couldnt accept that El’Baradei criticized israeli nukes, then they put Amano in place…
On November 18, 2011 – Israeli daily Haaretz claimed that former US secretary of state, Henry Kissinger, had called his fellow Jews as “self-serving bastards“.
Former US Secretary of State (1973-77), Henry (Heinz) Kissinger, has an interesting history of relation with Israel and the Jewish Lobby. He is committed Zionist Jew who blindly supports the Zionist entity. However, sometimes he has given priority to the US interests over the Jewish interests.
According to daily Haaretz, American Jewish groups lobbying the Nixon White House on behalf of their Soviet brethren got under Henry Kissinger’s skin in demanding intense pressure on Moscow to the point that he denounced them to a White House colleague as self-serving “bastards,” newly released documents indicate.
Among the appeals flooding the White House was one from the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir to President Richard Nixon in August 1972 asking him to protest to the Kremlin its levying of fees for exit permits.
According to transcripts released by the State Department, Kissinger, who was Haig’s deputy, said to fellow Jewish White House official Leonard Garment: “Is there a more self-serving group of people than the Jewish community?”
Garment replied: “None in the world.”
At this point, Kissinger was quoted as saying “What the hell do they think they are accomplishing?”
Kissinger went on: “You can’t even tell bastards anything in confidence because they’ll leak it.”
On March 3, 2011 – to the great pleasure of the Jewish Lobby, Kissinger, sent a letter to US Presideni Barack Obama asking him to pardon the convicted Jewish-American spy, Jonathan Pollard. Pollard is in prison since 1985.
In March 1973, Henry Kissinger, then national security adviser, had irked the Jewish Lobby and Israel. He reportedly said in response to Israeli prime minister Golda Meir’s campaign at the White House for open emmigration of Russian Jews to depopulate native Muslim and Christian Palestinians: “The emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union is not an objective of American foreign policy. And if they put Jews into gas chambers in Soviet Union, it’s not an American concern. Maybe a humanitarian concern“.
Many people consider Henry Kissinger a War Criminal and want him to be investigated by the International Criminal Court (ICC).
http://rehmat2.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/kissinger-calls-fellow-jews-bastards/
An intestesting aritcle that could have been written today:
U.n. Calls U.s. Data On Iran’s Nuclear Aims Unreliable
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/feb/25/world/fg-usiran25
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this — “In my opinion, the history of the Nazi movement and the history of Germany from its unification in 1871 until 1945, and particularly its interrelationship with Great Britain (which saw growing German strength as a threat to British empire) and to the decline of the Ottoman empire.
should have been this — “In my opinion, the history of the Nazi movement and the history of Germany from its unification in 1871 until 1945, and particularly its interrelationship with Great Britain (which saw growing German strength as a threat to British empire) and to the decline of the Ottoman empire, should be open to robust and critical analysis. Instead, “Nazi” is the brand name for a propagandized narrative created by partisans with an interest in selling only their version of events, and counter arguments are criminalized, in some places, and socially sanctioned in almost all others.
_____
“World Jewry” is how Jews think of themselves. Jews create organizations to communicate with and coordinate activities of their fellows from throughout the world. “Jews in diaspora” is another way of saying the same thing.
Masoud, regarding this statement:
“If you want to give everyone the impression that you are a complete raving loon with Nazi sympathies, then you can go ahead and rant about “World Jewry” and such similarly ill defined and meaningless terms. It all depends on the effect you are trying to achieve.”
I think the epithet “Nazi” is tossed about too freely and in a meaningless fashion. In my opinion, the history of the Nazi movement and the history of Germany from its unification in 1871 until 1945, and particularly its interrelationship with Great Britain (which saw growing German strength as a threat to British empire) and to the decline of the Ottoman empire.
That discussion is sanctioned out of mind by using “Nazi” in the same way as “antisemite”, or, to make it a three-fer, Holocaust denial, are used — to shut down debate in the absence of effective arguments, or in fear that inconvenient truths might find their way into the public consciousness.
kooshy says:
November 18, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Thank you for this link. Dr. Larijani says that Americans supported terrorists (al Queda) in Afghanistan, those same terrorists are now in Libya and Iran supported the weasels and rats. Abdelhakim Belhadj the military governor of Tripoli is al Queda!
There is no global south, this is just a paradox. The only true principled nations are the ALBA group led by Venezuela. Iran let a lot of it’s friends down with the rush to support the rats. What goes round comes around wait and see. I bet you my bottom € that they will be no investigation regarding the disappearance of Ayatollah Sadr. There are too many in Lebanon and Iran who do not want the investigation to take place.
Karl asks, “Is there a way out?”
Karl: When Uncle Angel is against you, you don’t have a prayer.
Mark: Is Uncle Angel OK? Or is that name-calling? I’m shootin’ for an irreproachable moniker. Work with me here…
Would you say that the final attempt to isolate Iran have been initiated by Israel/America?
In some weeks alot of things have happend:
1. The saudi-ambassador plot:
While no people even have been proven guilty, nor any connection to Iran have been exposed US/Saudi pushed a resolution yesterday in the UN condemning Iran and some 100+ nations approved it while only 5-6 voted against.
By the way, something is very wrong when people rally and condemn a certain state for “allegedly” a plot. For crying out loud, there is no evidence! What a cangaroo court type of approach! US/Israel doesnt care if something is true or not, they are just hellbent to push rumours to become facts! While US have enormous power to persuade nations, I am kind of surprised that so many nations voted for the resolution. Even Russia and China didnt vote against.
2. IAEA report:
The hyped up report didnt offer any new information. The information as we all know come from the so called laptop that US have refused to publish its evidence to the IAEA, like the saudi-plot US goal is just to push the documents as facts for the world. Also these information was well known like back in 2003-2004 so its all recycled stuff. Why recycle? Because since IAEA doesnt find anything in Iran connecting it to a weapons program, and it keep saying that Iran is in compliance – “no diversion of uranium”. So US/Israel have to recycle information to get the world hyped up again.
Since US pay the majority of IAEA budget they also have the power to elect and push whoever should be on the Board Of Governors:
iaea.org/About/Policy/Board/
Board Members for 2011-2012
For the 2011 – 2012 period, the new composition of the 35-member IAEA Board is: Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Czech Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, France, Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Korea, Republic of, Mexico, Netherlands, Niger, Portugal, Russian Federation, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Africa, Sweden, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, United Republic of Tanzania and United States of America.
Now IAEA have also issued a resolution against Iran, also that went through (of course since BOG is occupied with pro-american, pro-western nations). Russia and China didnt vote against it.
————————————————————————————–
US have came out and telling that Iran is getting more and more isolated.
Is there any truth to it? How will it affect Iran?
haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-iran-facing-unprecedented-isolation-over-nuclear-program-1.396451
Also Russia but more obviously China is not that keen about Iran anymore, it seems that they are floating away for everyday that pass by and getting closer to american interests. Russia on the other hand express its criticism against american policy now and then but it pretty much ends there. While Syria might get lost too, Iran have no allied partners at all.
Is there a way out?
WTF & Massoud:
Ah yes, Mika Brezhinsky. That’s her name. Daughter of the petty aristocrat Pole. And yeah, 4 against 1, and still… I was just about to say Weasels B Squirmin’, but alas, that little avenue of pleasure has been closed to me :D
I must say, its gonna be quite a task to come up with a term as versatile and charitable as Weasel. But I am sure Allah will provide, from his infinite Bounty, inshallah.
Mark:
Yes, I’ll give it a break, only because its gotten stale and as you have asked so nicely.
That shit’s been going on two tours old now. We gotta come up with some new shit!
But I think Massoud is correct, of course. So as a place-holder, I’ll borrow the epithet Son of Sam from the serial killer who went postal on some ?ew York ass.
And its not a tit for tat, by the way. Not a quid pro quo, as Hannibal would say. ‘The Mullahs’ don’t have their arms around Son of Sam’s neck and are not trying to kill the son of a bitch! And you’re worried about name-calling? Hel-looooooooo???
Oh, alright, I’ll try to bee-haiiiiiiive. For decorum’s sake. A Clown must know his limits in front of the Lords and Squires of the Court.
kooshy says:
November 18, 2011 at 6:38 pm
Thank you for this link.
I agree with Mika Brzezinski, that interview was uncomfortable. Who does this terrorist asshole think he is? Just sitting there all confident and calm while we all tag team him with lies and thinly veiled threats. Well I never….Just creepy. Get him out of here so that we can have an “intelligent” discussion.
masoud says:
November 19, 2011 at 2:20 am
I just read through all of the days discussion and was going to chime in, but you virtually took the words from my mouth. One small issue though, I don’t believe that Photi actually referenced “World Jewry”. I believe the was Mr. Silverstein’s spin on Photi’s comment.
As I stated in the last thread, Photi’s comment seemed fair to me in that I took it as a (somewhat emotional) call for the Jewish people to take a step back and reflect on what is happening in the ME, and what this says about them and their values. The same should be said for/to the American people, which is where we get to the debate contrasting religion, race, nationality, etc. To this point, I personally agree with much of UU’s position, I do, however, find it pragmatic to draw a distinction between Jewish people and Zionists when attempting to have a debate in which you genuinely care about swaying people. Like-minded people are going to go along either way, but most people (at least in the US) are going to be very apprehensive of someone who’s position is that ALL Jews are culpable for Israel’s misdeeds.
Furthermore, I personally feel that using blanket statements regarding a large group of INDIVIDUALS is problematic. When I have discussions with Jewish people I don’t frame it as if being Jewish is synonymous with being Zionist; I let their positions dictate my view of them (the same as I would expect from them to me). However, in general I agree with the gist of Photi’s comment as well as UU’s point (that anti-Zionist Jews are the exception that proves the rule).
Pirouz says:
November 19, 2011 at 12:06 am
Personally, I fell UU should stop using those terms because Weasel is far too charitable. But then again, I can’t think of any term which would actually do them justice. I recently heard someone(I think it was Arnold Evans) describe Obama as ‘The most spectacular Uncle Tom in all History’.That doesn’t even seem to do the ma justice
Unknown Unknowns says:
November 18, 2011 at 5:58 pm
The post at the end of the last thread seemed quite self assured, and so I didn’t take as a call for commentary. But now that you ask here is my opinion: yes, mainstream Judaism is guilty of self conflation with Zionism. I would say because of the sheer extent of this problem, mainstream Jewish organizations, whatever their original core mission, should be called on to to distance themselves for Zionism, and I believe Jewish people have a particular responsibility to speak out against Israel. But none of this means that speaking of things like “World Jewery” as Photi was doing on Silverstein’s site is in any way constructive. In many ways, it’s not much different from Glenn Beck going on about Van Jones or the Hojatieh or Imame-e-Zaman. If you want to condemn Zionism, that word exists in the English language, and so you can use it. If you want to criticize mainstream Judaism or the bulk of the rabinate of jewish liberals of an unconscionable alliance and servitude towards one of the most odious race based ideologies conceived of in the past century, well, I’m sure you can muster the words to do exactly that. If you want to give everyone the impression that you are a complete raving loon with Nazi sympathies, then you can go ahead and rant about “World Jewry” and such similarly ill defined and meaningless terms. It all depends on the effect you are trying to achieve.
Unknown Unknowns says:
November 18, 2011 at 11:30 pm
They had him invited to Joe’s show to be grilled by Haas and co. but with four of them they still couldn’t handle him, all along he knew what it’s going on, and he knew how to make them run for their money, basically he got them by their balls, so they had enough, decided to kick and cut him off and probably in the back room the editors decided to give Haas a free time to somehow makeup for the embarrassment so he got his segment without him, I had never seen Haas face to be so angry, it was the best lough I had in a longtime, it shows Iranian politicians are too good to be debated by professional media talking heads. All along I thought Ahmadinejad is master of debates with foreign media personalities but I must admit Larijani is also very good.
Bravo Dr. Larijani you are the man
UU
Can you please stop with your “weasel” name calling? It’s okay to be critical of certain policies, but I imagine you take offense to Iran’s regime as “those mullahs.” Some of us here feel the same way toward name calling the U.S., myself included
Yes I did Photi. And thank you Kooshy for that link.
And I think you summed it up brilliantly in just two or three sentences. Those of us with verbal diarrhea do not have such talents. (And no, I’m not fishing for compliments, so please don’t give me any.)
Yes, the quick regrouping at the end was Hillarious. Heil the Secretary of State!
Because they are so blind to the realities of this world, the Weasel’s nose will be rubbed into the ground pretty hard, I’m afraid. Frankly I was surprised at the female co-host, as she is the daughter of Zbig Brezhinsky and should logically be expected to have a better head on her shoulder. Especially seeing as she is blond, which, contrary to popular opinion, is not, of course, the sign of a lack of intelligence, but quite to the contrary. On the other hand, at the risk of being rude, crude, ans socially unacceptable, maybe the carpet doesn’t match the shades? LOL
Fior:
Am I? Methinks not. I am preaching to a choir whose choir boys are so “touched” by their own sense of being “progressive” that when Photi rightly condemns the Jews for their immoral behavior in supporting and sustaining the apartheid state of Israel, and Richard Silverstein knee-jerkedly censures him for being anti-Jewish (he used “anti-Semite”), this Choir joined in the condemnation and told Photi that he was “way out of line” or “over the top” or whatever phrase it was that Eric used. And what I am preaching to that Choir is that whereas Judaism and Jewishness at one time were antithetical to Zionism, now, as a result of a process of what I have called “Self-conflation”, is indistinguishable from it. And that therefore to say to someone that he should say Zionist and not Jewish, as Silverstein and chumps have done, is meaningless. The terms are, as far as I can determine, functionally interchangeable when it comes to the condemnation of the atrocity that is Israel and its supporters and enablers.
*it may look as if i am quoting Fiorangela, sorry. those were two separate but related thougts.
Unknown Unknowns,
Did you catch the Morning Joe interview with Dr. Larijani that Kooshy linked to at 6:38? The good doctor has Berkeley roots.
America’s schizophrenia is in full view among the panel. Fiorangela’s reaction sums it up nicely. Welcome to Absurdistan, USA. Population too many and counting. The segment at the end where they doublethink for us needful americans was my favorite part.
Unknown Unknowns, you’re preaching to the choir.
speaking of choirs, Fatemeh Keshavarz posted a new Windows on Iran and included a video of a choral presentation of Simorgh, a very favorite Iranian image.
Fior: just to be sure: the Catholic Church DID condemn the rampant pedophilia that took place in decades past. I did not mean to imply that they hadn’t. That said, it did take the Pope some time, years, as I recall, finally to meet with a group of victims and their families. And I’ll never forget the group’s reaction to the meeting with the pontiff when they came out from chambers and the press asked them what the experience was like. They “were touched,” they said :D
*
OK, so I kid the Catholics…
But now that I have my little joke out of the way, perhaps I’ll see if I can come up with a better example. Let’s say, just for the sake of argument, you understand, as this example does not have any tenable correlatable parallels to today, but let us say that Moslem North Africa invaded Spain and subjugated the Iberian peninsula to an unjust apartheid regime, displacing millions, killing hundreds of thousands, collective punishment, mass imprisonments, the lot. And this was all done under the auspices of a movement called the Andalusian movement. Meanwhile, all of the Moslem world, which was against this movement on ethical grounds from the beginning, be they layman or priest, hemmed and hawed about the tactics of the Andalusians, but ultimately, supported them and their right to “exist”, even if this existence could only be had at the expense of massive injustices to the original inhabitants of Spain. Would the collective voice of the “liberal” and “progressive” world be condemning just the “Andalusians”, or would they be condemning and holding to account ALL Moslems, without whose financial, diplomatic and political support Andalusia could not exist.
Why should these dastardly Jews be held to a different standard? They support the terrorism that is institutionalized in the state of Israel. If American Moslems supported terrorism, they would be in concentration camps as we speak.
Photi:
Alright, then Brooklyn. Or better yet, the Catskill Mountains, aka the “Jewish Alps”!
Of course it is not going to happen with a Jewish organization behind the impetus, and I was kidding about North Dakota, obviously, just as I am kidding about the Jewish Alps. But until shown evidence to the contrary, I for one will oblige the Jews with their self-conflation of their identity with the evil ideology of Zionism and continue to use the two terms interchangeably (just as I refuse to use the term anti-Semite, which disenfranchises the Ishmaelite branch of that family, and will use anti-Jesish instead, which is what is actually meant.)
Evidence to the contrary would include people like Bill Maher, Terry Gross, Jon Stewart, as well as Chomsky and Goodman (let alone for now the actual leaders of the Jewish organizations in the US) acting in their capacity as tribune for the Jews, to publicly demanda boycott of Israel until it grants all refugees the right of return, provides compensation to them, withdraws to the 1967 borders, and appoints a “National Transitional Council” (a la Libya!) based on the new demographics which would draft a new constitution.
Needless to say, this will never happen, because that is just a long-hand way of saying that these tribunes should demand the dissolution of the state of Israel as we know it, i.e., the dissolution of the *apartheid* state. You know, just like the Islamic Republic of Iran has been demanding from Day One.
And so, because the Jews of all stripes insist that that which cannot be sustained by just means must be sustained anyway, Jews insist in a gross and outrageous injustice. Yet, they have been treated with kid gloves, lest there be another Hollowco$$$t.
The stance of Jews and Judaism as a collectivity on the central issue of our times – which has also become a central issue to Jewish identity – the apartheid state of Israel, is a moral outrage. Jews should be called out on their support for it. It is a clear and unambiguous moral duty.
Go ahead… think you’re progressive. Say ‘Zionist’ when you really mean Jew. Say ‘anti-Semite’ when you really mean anti-Jew. What do I know? I’m just another clown.
“depends on what you mean by Catholic.”
hmmm, I suppose I MIGHT try to make that lame defense, since I was raised Catholic and was at one time intensely Catholic, and though I do not any longer practice Catholic rituals, one does not become “unCatholic,” I’ll always be ‘Catholic’ in some fundamental way. Yet I certainly do not wish to be associated with the moral outrage of the Catholic hierarchy & pedophilia, and what is more, I have no way to stop it or cure it.
that fundamental Catholicity excites a little voice that says, “Judge not lest you be judged; condemn not lest you be condemned.” Yet pedophilia-sheltering clerics, and zionists, deserve, even demand condemnation, for the greater good. If god works through human hands, if “prayer is political action,” then to condemn that which requires condemnation is putting one’s political voice to the service of the divine.
Dear Fior,
While I am as appreciative of Academic nuance as the next clown, methinks you are complicating an issue that is so simple, so right-in-front-of-our-eyes simple, that it has eluded us. It does not matter what Judaism is defined as, or how it is defined. The vast majority of those who identify themselves as Jewish (excepting Neturei Karta Jews and any other Jews who believe that Israel should not exist *as a Jewish state* – the exception that underscores the rule), also aver and insist on the moral righteousness of the abomination that is the state of Israel.
This is a moral outrage.
And because Jews have become so morally degenerate as to be blind to this outrage, because they are *proud* of their Zio-Judaism, because their identity is inextricably intertwined with this moral outrage, in short, because the vast majority of Jews SELF-conflate the two, therefore, mainstream Judaism is no different than and equivalent to Zionism with all its evil trappings.
And it is high time enlightened and justice-seeking people of the world called them on it.
Ameen.
*
Dear Fior,
Perhaps the analogy does not fully (as Judaism is not hierarchical, or as hierarchical as the Catholic Church), but nonetheless, I think that it still serves the purpose. To go back to my earlier analogy of the scandal in the Catholic Church. Recall that in that example, the hypothetical situation was that the Pope as well as the entirety of the College of Cardinals defended child sexual abuse and did not take responsibility for it and attempt to do anything about it. In that situation, were one to accuse the Catholic Church of being a bunch of moral degenerates, supporting and cheering on morally outrageous acts, year in and year out, would your answer be “Depends on what you call ‘Catholic’ “? Of course not!
Jews, mainstream Jews, the vast majority, (like I said, including such ‘luminaries’ as Chomsky, Goodman, Finkelstein) believe in the Jewish state and cheer its existence on. None of them even champions the right of return or even compensation for land stolen. And they do this as a collectivity, not just as individuals. In their synagogs, in their Hillel Houses, in their various and sundry sordid dens of treachery within each and every host country wherein they reside. (Excepting Iran, of course, which limits their room to maneuver for their own good as well as for the good of the country as a whole: to ensure that they remain loyal subjects, if Other-thinking and acting.)
Is this not the way it is? Correct me if I am wrong, please. The Genii of the Board know more than a mere Clown. But if this *is* the way it is, then it is an outrage, and they should be called on it *as Jews* as WELL as, as Zionists. In my humbling opinion, they have become one and the same, through this act of self-conflation.
The first hurdle to a discussion of the conflation of Judaism and zionism is the determination of What is a Jew?
Is ‘Jewish’ a religion? Most Jews reject that definition; many Jews are not religious but still identify as Jews.
Abba Eban introduces the documentary he produced and narrates, “Heritage: Civilization and the Jews,” with the explanation that “Jews are not a religion, Jews are a people.”
Ben Gurion considered himself an atheist along the lines of Spinoza, and did not believe in the divine authorship of the Bible, but on the day he declared the existence and independence of Israel, he announced to the British that “the Bible is our mandate,” that in the Bible, “God promised the Jewish people the land of Israel.” From this, one is forced to conclude that the Bible is the book of the Jewish people but not a religious book.
Zionism is, of course, a political movement, not a religion.
But as Eban and Ben Gurion firmly asserted, neither is ‘Jewish’ a religious category. In its modern expression, Jewish has always been a political category, with its nexus in a Book, that may or may not have religious significance, depending on the use it is required to serve.
Hasbara: ‘Bibi has turned Israel into Iran’
One has to agree that when it comes to demonize one’s enemy – no one can do a better job than a Zionist-Jew writer. He can turn Ahmadinejad into a Hitler or even a Jew. He can turn Qaddafi into a Jew and anti-Semite. He can turn Ayatullah Ali Khamenie into the Arab-hating Rabbi Ovadia Josef…….
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/hasbara-bibi-has-turned-israel-into-iran/
UU,
North Dakota is no longer up for grabs, they have a fricken, i mean frakken oil boom going on there. For oilmen and truck drivers, North Dakota is now the land of plenty.
UU You wrote: “The only way Judaism can redeem itself is to propose to build a Zion on land freely given, not taken by force of terror.”
In 1938 Trujillo offered land and sanctuary in Dominican Republic to 100,000 Jews, but only 645 Viennese and German Jews migrated to Sousa in DR. Then, Sousa was untamed territory; today, it is a beach resort. 30 Jewish families remain in Sousa, as does the dairy created by the first migrants some 70 years ago.
James Canning at 6:16 pm, thank you for the link to Andrew Bacevich’s article in American Conservative, Big Change Whether We Like It Or Not.
It acted as an antidote to the shameful treatment Dr. Larijani endured from the likes of Richard Haas; the pinch-faced twit who writes for Newsweek (Jon Meacham??), and the tub of lard (Mike Barnicle? Wasn’t he fired from something?) to the left of the poorly informed blonde with a bad attitude (h/t to kooshy at 6:38).
It was a kangaroo court: “When you said Israel you’re tone changed. Why was that? . . .Why are you smiling? Why are you so confident? [Why aren't you grovelling at our feet, don't you know that, as Andrew Bacevich said, "we are reflecting, of course, God’s express intentions"?] Even worse than the interview are the comments posted by my fellow citizens. Stop the country, I want to get off.
Castellio:
What are we to make of it? Well, I think that is a question for the forum to kick about and decide. I merely wanted to point to the fact that *mainstream* Judaism has equated itself, thanks to decisions that it has made in the past, and continues to take in synagogs around the world as we speak, with Zionism, with all its founding moral errors and present-day atrocities. (My motivation for pointing this out, of course, was Photi’s post at Silverstein’s blog.) There is nothing new in religious movements taking a massive wrong turn. What’s new here is that this has happened to an ancient major world religion, whose adherents just so happen to dominate the mainstream discourse of Western (and hence, de facto, world) public discourse.
James just pointed out to the distinction between Zionism “proper” (if you’ll excuse the juxtaposition) and “expansionist” Zionism. This of course is a false dichotomy. Zionism as originally conceived was completely expansionist, into the Asian continent, from a idea in the mind of European Jewry, due to troubles on its home turf. The state was not properly recognized by the UN in 1948, and as such, it is an illegal entity. And even if it was properly recognized (which it was not), it would still not have a moral authority to exist *as a Jewish state* which could only take place at the expense of the dispossession of its original population (and the attrocious 60+ year record of every imaginable violation of human right needed to maintain the artifice.
Jews have every right to have a state that is Jewish in character. But they do not have the right to found that state on the land of a people that they then proceed to dispossess of their land like so much “dogs being cleared of a stable” (to paraphrase Churchill). THAT is the distinction that mainstream Judaism stated in the face when standing at the fateful crossroad of its history. And needless to say, it took the wrong turn. It swallowed a poison pill proffered to it by athiestic Jews who had despaired of living among their neighbors. It swallowed the poison pill of despair.
The only way Judaism can redeem itself is to propose to build a Zion on land freely given, not taken by force of terror. Say in North Dakota! Of course, that is not going to happen. And so, the poison pill will slowly but surely kill Judaism, just as the Zionist project will, in the fullness of time, die its natural death, inshallah.
Evgeny Primakov, the former Russian prime minister, said this week:”I’m strongly convinced that Iran wants to have the opportunity of being capable of creating nuclear weapon technically upon a political decision, if need be. So far, a political decision has not been made.” This of course has been my position too, and that of the Leveretts.
Castellio,
Perhaps it is useful to distinguish between “Zionism” and “Zionist-expansionism”? I think a good percentage of American Jews have considerable doubts about the merits of the Greater Israel programme, even if they “support” Israel itself.
Writing at TheDailyBeast Nov. 17th, John Bolton claimed Iran “was reaching for dominance in Bahrain”. Utter rubbish. Iran wants to try to control Bahrain?
Qatar, when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
from the Al Jazeera video, Shadi Hamid:
“Qatar is able to spend [without constraint] . . .whether it’s providing funding to Egypt or providing funding to Libyan rebels . . .”
Libya UN envoy accuses Qatar of arming Islamists
By REUTERS
11/18/2011 15:29
“Shalgam tells Qatar to stop meddling in Tripoli’s domestic affairs; Qatar denies interference in other states’ affairs.”
UU, I had to go back to read what you wrote. Maybe I’m missing something: you write of the rabbinical conflation of Judaism with Zionism as a now established fact. (There are, in fact, still many rabbis who dispute it, but in the majority you seem to be right. It is true, too, that the Israeli government plays a large role in international Jewish organizations.)
Well, what are we to make of that?
James says, “Links between Saudi Arabia and Israel tend to get strengthened when the Saudis see themselves as threatened by Iran. This gets back to the ill-considered continuing production of 20% U.”
If only, dear James, you could hear how pitifully provincial and culturally self-absorbed you sound.
An event that occurred almost five years ago now (on Jan 18th 2007) is the milestone that defines the new era of Sino-American military rivalry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_anti-satellite_missile_test
It is interesting to note that Wikipedia, in its section on the event called “Consequences of the Test” does not even mention the real significance of the watershed moment, which is that as of that date, China has the proven ability to take out the eyes and ears of the US military machine.
As a corrective aside, the pollution caused by the debris of the remnants of the satellite that was destroyed in the test is a result not of the test itself, hwich was its proximate or immediate cause, but of the need felt by China to carry out such a test, which itself was and continues to be provoked by the use of space and space-based satellite technologies by the US and other belligerents for military purposes.
This is fantastic I recommend everyone to watch this
Bravo Dr. Larijani
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/ns/msnbc_tv-morning_joe/#45337451
Unknown Unknowns,
Links between Saudi Arabia and Israel tend to get strengthened when the Saudis see themselves as threatened by Iran. This gets back to the ill-considered continuing production of 20% U.
Unknown Unknowns,
I think getting all US troops out of Central Asia would be a good thing. For the region and for the American taxpayers.
connoisseur (of neocon idiocy a la Doug Feith)
Fiorangela,
Given that you are a conoisseur of Doug Feith and the idiotic neocon effort to frighten the American public about Islam, I recommend Wayne Barrett’s “Rick Perry’s Rabbi”:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/10/02/rick-perry-s-rabbi-irwin-katsoff.html
Highlights of Wayne Madsen’s article on the SCO published on Voltairnet today:
War clouds amassing over Iran
by Wayne Madsen
http://www.voltairenet.org/War-clouds-amassing-over-Iran
“…[The SCO ] announced after its prime ministers’ summit in St. Petersburg that SCO would soon be opening its doors for full membership for Pakistan, Iran, and India. The Asian nations want to freeze the United States out of interference in Asia.”
“… Recent comments by the deputy commander of NATO training in Afghanistan, U.S. Army Major General Peter Fuller, that the Afghan government leadership is erratic, ungrateful, and isolated from reality because President Hamid Karzai said Afghanistan would side with Pakistan in an American war on Pakistan, resulted in Fuller’s firing. Fuller’s comments also resulted in Karzai asking for observer status in SCO as American aggression against the Muslim world and opposition to sovereignty for Palestine has seen Washington’s standing around the world plummet.”
“…Iran has now seen Israel’s most-open secret ally, Saudi Arabia, appoint the former Egyptian intelligence chief and close Netanyahu friend, Omar Suleiman, as an adviser to Saudi heir apparent, Crown Prince Nayef bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud, who is also the Interior Minister.”
“…AIPAC and its minions have managed to jam through the U.S. House a law that prohibits any U.S. diplomatic contact with Tehran’s officials.”
“…Amano certainly took no interest in the fact that his own nation, Japan, was secretly producing nuclear weapons at the Fukushima nuclear complex in contravention of IAEA rules. The aftermath of the destructive earthquake in Japan laid open the secret work going on at Fukushima. Amano is perfectly willing to act as a cipher for Israel and the Israel Lobby in “discovering” IAEA violations by Iran.”
Ric,
It seems reasonable to believe that at least some Gulf leaders see the overthrow of Assad as weakening Iran to their benefit. I doubt that is the reason the unrest received support from the Gulf, however.
Andrew Bacevich blasts the foolish “thinking” to be found in Washington these days, of delusional American power believed to be of the sort that obtained in 1945.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/big-change-whether-we-like-it-or-not/
The pressure on Syria by EU/US/Gulf regimes are obviously just one part of a bigger game to take down Iran at the same time.
I’m sorry to have had to point to the 800 lb. gorilla in the room in my post at the end of the last thread, but at least now you know what the gorilla looks like. And while I realize that it is the hottest of hot potatoes, the reaction of complete silence to it is unbecoming of this forum.
fyi,
Yes. of course the US gained from Soviet Union’s prodigious war effort against Germany.
I think Putin thinks the USSR went wrong, with absurdly high “defence” spending, was in later 1960s and 1970s. In fact, the greatest threat to the Soviet Union was internal, demographic and economic/political.
Fio
“I DO think AIPAC power in the US will implode, sooner or later.”
I agree and I fear that’s coming, god forbid if and when that start to happen that would be when will see the repeat of the 1939 for real, I am willing to bet once this honeymoon is over like back then, this new episode will start from farming Midwestern and Southern states and will spread.
Fiorangela,
I think much of the neocon propaganda about seeking “democracy” in Iraq was intended to help dupe the moron in the White House, and to obtain support from fools in US Congress.
WTF,
I think Russia is quite right to say western military intervention in Syria would be a great mistake.
Fiorangela,
To me what is so striking about the neocon conspiracy to set up the illegal invasion of Iraq, is simply that the four principal officials in the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans (which worked with Chalabi to dupe the US Congress and the White House), were all Jewish neocons! What an absurd situation on its face, and what striking testimony to the gross incompetence of Condoleezza Rice.
Wasn’t Doug Feith a partner in the Jerusalem law firm, with Chalabi’s nephew in it oo?
I understand Feith expected to run an imvestment fund out of Baghdad, to grow rich from “managing” some of Iraq’s oil wealth.
fyi,
Britain,s stated policy is expressly NOT REGIME CHANGE. Full stop. Hague makes this clear beyond any doubt. This is not to say that various neocons in US and UK, and other fanatical “supporters” of Israel are pleased.
You perhaps remember when a British Zionist claimed Hague had said the UK saw Iran as an “enemy”, that claim waa rebutted immeidately by the British embassy in Tel Aviv.
REPORT: Russia Moving Warships Into Syrian Waters
The warships are reportedly being readied as Moscow sends a message that Russia is opposed to international intervention putting an end to disturbances in Syria. Russia used a UN Security Council veto in October to block a resolution that would have condemned Syria’s President Bashir Assad for the violence.
If true, the move shows an increasingly brazen attitude by the Russian armed forces.
Earlier this month a Russian official warned that western intervention in Iran would be a “very serious mistake”, and just yesterday a Russia military chief warned that its border disputes had the potential to end in nuclear conflict.
James Canning at 2:23 and fyi at 3:46
How Ahmed Chalabi Conned the Neocons
QUOTE
“Ahmed Chalabi will be among those judged most responsible for the Bush administration’s decision to invade Iraq and topple Saddam Hussein. More than a decade ago Chalabi teamed up with American neoconservatives to sell the war as the cornerstone of an energetic new policy to bring democracy to the Middle East . . .
“Ahmed Chalabi is a treacherous, spineless turncoat,” says L. Marc Zell, a former law partner of Douglas Feith, now the undersecretary of defense for policy, and a former friend and supporter of Chalabi and his aspirations to lead Iraq. “He had one set of friends before he was in power, and now he’s got another.” While Zell’s disaffection with Chalabi has been a long time in the making, his remarks to Salon represent his first public break with the would-be Iraqi leader, and are likely to ripple throughout Washington in the days to come.
Zell, a Jerusalem attorney, continues to be a partner in the firm that Feith left in 2001 to take the Pentagon job. He also helped Ahmed Chalabi’s nephew Salem set up a new law office in Baghdad in late 2003. Chalabi met with Zell and other neoconservatives many times from the mid-1990s on in London, Turkey, and the U.S. Zell outlines what Chalabi was promising the neocons before the Iraq war: “He said he would end Iraq’s boycott of trade with Israel, and would allow Israeli companies to do business there. He said [the new Iraqi government] would agree to rebuild the pipeline from Mosul [in the northern Iraqi oil fields] to Haifa [the Israeli port, and the location of a major refinery].” But Chalabi, Zell says, has delivered on none of them. The bitter ex-Chalabi backer believes his former friend’s moves were a deliberate bait and switch designed to win support for his designs to return to Iraq and run the country. ”
END QUOTE
Shamid Hamid in Qatar, are you listening?
thosewhofailtolearnfromhistoryaredoomedtorepeatit
U.S. Defense Secretary: Iran strike will hurt world economy
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-defense-secretary-iran-strike-will-hurt-world-economy-1.396316
Note how israel once again travelling all around the world. Its becoming more evident that Israel, through american power, steer the path for IAEA on Iran and steer UNSC role when it comes to Iran.
Israel threat the world with war and not only that they threat the world order with their reckless threats that could sink this world down into economic chaos. In fact israeli behavior is a clear threat to world peace and therefore a threat according to UN charter and should have been invaded long time ago.
US patheticly cry about “ohh world economy will fail if Israel attack” “oohh ohhh israel should not attack Iran” etc but at the same time giving them all green lights they need, giving them bunker busters and support them – oh no no sanctions, no condemnations no threat of war by NATO against Israel oh no….. US have become a pathetic dog attached to the israeli leash.
Rehmat says: November 18, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Those are all pipe-dreams.
TAPI will never be built.
James Canning says: November 18, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Yes they were hard viscious man that could exploit 300 million people to do their dastardly deeds for them.
Yet, God thwarted them and turned their tricks against them.
And Iran came out with an order of magnitude of increase – perhaps more – in her strategic autonomy.
Note that US was also the beneficiary of USSR’s victory over Germany – minus the costs.
As for your usual complains; I think it will be a good idea to spend some time and figure out why US arrived at the juncture that she did.
Perhaps it was inevitable, perhaps it was not.
Either way, one has to apply Reason and analyze teh historical process that began with the Coup against the late Dr. Mossadeq in 1953 to the departure of US from Iraq in 2011.
The Paris-based International Energy Agency (IEA) and US-based Energy Information Administration (EIA) have predicted that by 2030, the natural gas will replace oil as the main energy source of choice for the industrial and public needs. This was one of the reasons the Bush administration used 9/11 to implement a preplaned agenda to occupy Afghanistan to reach the Caspian Sea oil and gas reserves. The plan was to run a pipeline network from Turkmenistan (whose oil fields are owned by an Israeli billionaire) through Afghanistan and ending at Balochistani port of Gwadar (Pakistan) from where it was to be shipped to Israeli refinery at Haifa through tankers.
According to Dr. Raja Muhammad Khan – Balochistan region is “fast becoming the hub of hydrocarbons. All overland oil and gas pipelines from Central Asia and the Middle East to China or elsewhere in Asia would be passing through this region, which may not be liked by the foes of Pakistan and Iran”. The intelligence agencies from India, Afghanistan, the US, UK and Israel have been quite active to become the region heaven for the foreign-supported terrorism. Jundoallah millitant outfit is one of such foreign-funded and trained groups……
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2010/03/29/islamic-republics-natural-gas-bonanza/
Pro-Israel student leader: ‘Obama assassination tempting’
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/pro-israel-student-leader-obama-assassination-tempting-2/
James Canning says:
November 18, 2011 at 1:25 pm
James, perhaps because I hold views that Eric likely would consider antisemitic, I DO think AIPAC power in the US will implode, sooner or later.
The “antisemitic” perspective that I hold is that Jewish people display a pattern of behavior, from the time of Joseph in Egypt to AIPAC etc. in U.S., to, now, Haim Saban’s Brookings in Doha. The pattern is the use and lure of wealth “interpretation of dreams” to seduce a state to pursuing policies and actions that are sold as in the interest of the host state but are in reality for the benefit of the “dream weaver.” In every case, the host state is left holding the bag, the dream weaver having killed off the first born of the host, having made off with the host’s treasure, having despoiled the host’s productive capacity, having protected itself from downside risk. When this happens, as it happened in Egypt (of myth), in Poland in real time, in Germany, the people who are negatively impacted react testily toward their antagonists. Jews call this “being persecuted.” Others might call it a human response to having been ill-used.
Israelists are ill-using the United States. Unless the laws of human nature are somehow suspended, there is no reason to think that, if and as Americans become aware of how they have been used (and indeed, have been complicit in their own exploitation), Americans will seek an outlet for their anger. It is my belief that a number of people in the Jewish community are aware of this pattern of human nature and are concerned about blowback. I say that based on this exchange at a July 2010 Forum of the Middle East Policy Council (at which Hillary Leverett was a panelist). :http://www.mepc.org/create-content/hill-forum/us-policies-toward-israel-and-iran-what-are-linkages?transcript
A member of the audience said:
QUOTE
“I am Michele Steinberg from Executive Intelligence Review. And my question begins with something that Paul Pillar mentioned, which is – and it is in my view the most immediate danger that we face as a foreign policy issue and might be the highest priority, which is what do we do here in the United States to ward off a potential unilateral Israeli strike against Iran?
I have to disagree with the comment that this has left the lexicon of Israeli policymakers. – while maybe openly, but certainly not behind the scenes. I draw everyone’s attention to two big articles in the Times of London in the last year, complete with maps, what air routes will be taken, submarine capabilities, et cetera, which quotes a myriad of Israeli high policy sources that say we are ready, we are able and we are in the process of convincing the United States to go along with this.
I feared this for a long time since I read “Clean Break” back in 1996, which called for regime change in Iraq and then Iraq. And I fear it more now after hearing Netanyahu’s interview while he was here and that everything is on the table. And it’s been reinforced by some of the things that Mr. Indyk has said. So what can we do to ward off an Israeli strike against Iran from a United States standpoint?”
END QUOTE
I thought it significant that a person whose name seems to be Jewish stated that “the greatest danger we face” is an Israeli attack on Iran.
The responses to Ms. Steinberg’s concern and question were even more significant. Dr. Hillary Leverett answered that the best way to alleviate that fear is by seeking US rapprochement with Iran; Martin Indyk said it’s all Iran’s fault; Dr. Ian Lustick of University of Pennsylvania said
QUOTE
” The only thing that – and all we have to do to stop any Israeli strike is don’t turn off the red light.
Every time Israel has used force significantly in the Middle East, against Lebanon, there’s 10 years later, scholars analyzed the extent to which that occurred because the United States turned on the yellow light, turned on the green light, or they turned off the red light. You can see that discussion. We should just don’t turn off the red light about attacking Iran. Israel, especially when it comes to nuclear weapons, will not take the risk of making a war like that when it doesn’t have a superpower behind it.”
END QUOTE
-Dr. Leverett’s recommendation was not pursued; Martin Indyk’s position is holding sway; but most alarmingly, Dr. Lustick’s warning has been ignored. According to Richard Silverstein on his blog, Tikun Olam, :http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2011/11/16/republicans-tell-israel-u-s-will-back-strike-against-iran/ , an article in Israeli newspaper Yisrael HaYom (the publication Sheldon Adelson created and publishes for free, to support Netanyahu)said that
QUOTE
“U.S. Republicans have been reassuring Israel that if the latter attacks Iran, the U.S. will stand behind it 100%. The article claims that Congressional Republicans. . .[proposing[ legislation that will obligate the government to stand behind Israel as it defends itself against the Iranian nuclear threat, up to, and including an Israeli attack.” {nb. note that an Israeli attack would be supported against a threat, not in defense against actual act of aggression.}
END QUOTE
Green light.
My perspective on the situation may well be antisemitic in that the pattern may be generalizable across all human groups and not specific to Jews; that may well be. However, in the here and now, it seems to me the United States IS being used in an abusive fashion by persons who do not have US interests at heart but who are working for the benefit of Israel and of Jews; I know this because organizations like the World Jewish Diplomatic Corps say so. WJDC is NOT the elusive and shadowy Illuminati; it IS a real organization, a subset of which is The Iran Task Force, that is subsidized by the government of Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs to act as unregistered foreign agents in nations throughout the world to gain advantage for diaspora Jews aka Jews throughout the world aka world Jewry.
Sakineh,
I agree with you that the radar stations in Azerbaijan and Turkey, aimed at Iran, have a good deal to do with domestic politics in Russia and the US.
fyi,
Maybe I should say some of the American politicians and other neocons were clever, vicious, and devious, if they claimed Iraq would sell its oil at deep discount to the US, to give themselves cover for facilitating a conspiracy to set up illegal invasion of Iraq.
fyi,
Yes, what utter stupidity for devious, or stupid, American neocons to claim Iraq would sell its oil to the US at a deep discount. And for foolish, or devious, US politicians to buy the claim.
Some continuing sabotage in Iraq is impeding quicker restoration of “full” oil production. Plus, Iraqi Kurdistan and Iraqi central gov’t have continuing “issues”.
James Canning says: November 18, 2011 at 1:32 pm
Regime changes is the stated policy of US-EU; otherwise they would have taken a different path in 2007.
My guess is that the Iranian leaders (and also per Mr. Marashi’s piece in the National Interest) have concluded as much and they are going their own way.
If US-EU could destroy Iran through war, they would have already done that.
They cannot carry-out a war of conquest against Iran and selective war with Iran is not feasible.
So they settled on a war of attrition.
Their approach is similar to the siege warfare of ancient and pre-modern times.
Surround a city, cut-off food and fuel, and hope to starve it to surrender.
That was certainly the case of Iraq.
And just like the olden times, staying put in the city will not do.
You have to break out of the siege.
And that is what the Iranians are doing – aided by their porous broders and assitance of many other (weaker) states that want US and EU to fail.
Powerful Jewish leaders in NYC who were given the so-called “intelligence”, that had been given to Obama (to effect Iran will have five nuclear weapons within six months), may be intened to provide cover for American politicians deliberately injuring the national interests of the US to please certain powerful Jewish interests.
James Canning says: November 18, 2011 at 1:29 pm
I was not clear about Iraq.
For decades the potential of Iraq’s huge oil reserves were not realized.
There seems to be some kind of impediments to that.
The Americans discounted those decades-long impediments and plunged into Iraq; hoping to first realize that potential and then to use it politically as a tool to adjust oil prices in the coming decades.
As you have observed, Iraq needs to sell as much oil as possible at the best prices to recover from the disasters of the Ba’ath and the United States.
Iraq selling oil cheaply to wreck Iran (and Russia) only could live in the minds of people who have never met an Iraqi, and Iranians, or a Russian in their lives.
Rd.,
Do you have an explantion for China’s refusal to buy the surplus Syrian oil?
Perhaps DEBKA should explain why Obama has not responded to Iran’s offer to cease production of 20% U, when DEBKA is claiming that the 20% U is on verge of being enriched to 95%.
According to DEBKA, Obama has been informed Iran will have five nuclear weapons within six months. Preposterous. Info was passed to Jewish leaders in New York City this past Sunday. To be used, obviously, to pressure foolish American politicians.
WTF,
M J Rosenberg should be commended for bringing certain facts to the attention of the American people. He has many pieces on HuffingtonPost site.
WTF,
Israel cannot do “whatever it wants, when ever it wants” in the Middle East. If this were true, Israel would expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank each year.
Israel manipulates its numerous stooges in the US Congress to deflect international attention from its insane “Greater Israel” programme.
kooshy,
China quite obviously is not an “enemy” of the US. Foolish American politicians may think it amusing to portray China as a likely “enemy” in future, but they want to help armaments manufacturers continue their f*cking of the ingorant American people.
Off topic, but worth the read. MJ Rosenberg on Israel’s Iran rhetoric.
Ehud Barak: Iranian nuclear program not really about Israel
And now we have Defense Minister Ehud Barak’s admission that the Israeli campaign to rush the U.S. and Israel itself into war is based on, at best, hype, and at worst, lies. Just like Iraq. …
… With one honest comment, he demonstrated that the hysteria surrounding an Iranian bomb is, in fact, not about an “existential threat” to Israel, but about two countries competing for regional hegemony.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/israel/article/ehud_barak_iranian_nuclear_program_not_really_about_israel_20111118/
kooshy,
And let’s remember the situation in October 1962 when most American military leaders were foolishly pressing Kennedy to attack Cuba!
kooshy,
Too many American military leaders were simply too stupid during period of Vietnam War to recognise that unified Vietnam posed no threat to US national interests. Britain saw this all along, and refused to back the war. Unified Vietnam was certain to pose some problems for China.
Some foolish US military leaders in 1954 wanted war with China! Why? To “protect” a “non-Communist” South Vietnam.
About threatening China …….
One day back in early 1974, and just a few years after the remake of US relations with China, and before the rescue flights from the roof of the US embassy in Saigon, (which now I also know it was after the Mao’s statement to Kissinger that we can lose 300 million how many you can lose), while I was in college and I had an American history course that day was on American war in Korea, I remember our professor was basically saying that we the Americans got blocked by China in Korea to an standstill and again we just got blocked by them further down the pacific in Vietnam and there is nothing we can do to counter their power in east Asia.
Some ROTC classmates got all read and hot and start saying that we are the strongest military power in the world, we can do this, we can do that, we can nuke them to stone age etc. etc. our professor replied asking them, do you guys know what you are talking about?, do you know what is the size of the red army?, do you know that the size of their eligible reserve is about 200 million strong, what do you guys think is going to happen, if 200 million men instead of attacking just start pissing at us, that alone can flood our forces out of their region.
Ruusia and China both back IAEA request to visit some Iranian nuclear sites. And Russia and China have blocked any new referral to UNSC for more sanctions, at this time at least.
fyi,
I continue to think you are mistaken to say US, UK, Germany, France et al. want regime change in Iran and will go to war to achieve it.
And you encourage Iran to continue to enrich to 20% when you are obviously aware this inflames the Saudis and other Gulf countries.
Perhaps you will feel better if Iran achieves war by enriching U to 20%?
fyi,
I expect Iraq will try to help keep oil and gas prices as high as possible, while selling as much Iraqi oil and gas as possible given that constraint.
Were neocons really so stupid as to believe Iraq would sell its oil at below-market prices? Some perhaps; others may have used the argument to dupe the ignorant American public and give cover to foolish (or vicious) US senators and congressment who helped to set up the illegal invasion of Iraq to please powerful Jewish interests.
Fiorangela,
I think the power of Aipac (and other Jewish groups) will continue to grow, not least because relative wealth of Jews in the US goes up year by year. Challenge is to achieve sensible decisions in ME despite corrosive effects of Israel lobby on US Congress etc. Meaning, decisions need to be put more in the hands of other countries not controlled by Israel lobby.
kooshy,
Yes, spending on weapons rather than infrastructure (roads, bridges, rail lines, etc) is very bad for the American economy, even if a superficial “benefit” accrues to the area where those weapons are manufactured. Oject in US is for any given state or congressional district to “benefit” itself by f*ucking the rest of the nation. Stooges of the armaments manufacturers game the system to that scores of senators and congressmen support a give arms programme even if that programme is not in the national interest.
Putin somethimes reminds people that excessive spending on the military helped bring down the USSR.
Ric,
Russia opposes the hugely expensive “missile defence” system American armaments manufacturers want to install in central or eastern Europe. Russia proposed US share Russian sites. US said those sites were inadequate.
Here is the same video in HD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAmA8fdipuI
http://www.sam.gov.tr/perceptions/volume%20xi/Au_Win06_aylin_unver_noi.pdf
Iran and sco? Though it is dated, covers some interesting issues surrounding sco, Iran and Eurasia.
Of particular is Ahmadinejad comments at the time of Iran sco membership considerations at 06 Shanghai meeting.
“We want this organization to develop into a
powerful body influential in regional and
international politics, economics and trade,
serving to block threats and unlawful strong-arm
interference from various countries”
any comments as to why Ahmadinejad was so direct on his comments? Gauging China/Russia?
And the response from Chinese FM spokesperson;
“We have always held that state-to-state relations
should be dealt with on the basis of the five
principles of peaceful coexistence and the spirit of
the UN Charter. We endorse SCO’s “Shanghai
Spirit”? mutual trust and benefit, equality,
coordination, respect for divesified civilizations and
common development. The SCO is a non-aligned
organization which does not stage a confrontation or
target at any third party or country. The past five
years has witnessed the significanct contribution of
the SCO in maintaining world and regional peace
and stability, pressing ahead with democratic
international relations and promoting harmony in the
region and the world at large. Iran is a sovereign
country. The remarks of President Ahmadinejad
during the meeting represent the position of Iran.”
And sco secretary’s comment;
“Many SCO members are for its intensive, but not
extensive, development; now is not the best time to
expand the organization, as it might hinder its
effectiveness.”
That brings us to present (11.7.11) and comments from Putin;
“Putin lashed out yesterday at “arrogant world powers” as he hosted his Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao for a regional security summit Moscow bills as a counterpart to NATO.
“It really is just like you said — these are arrogant world powers,” Putin said in response to remarks from Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi made during the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) summit in Saint Petersburg. “They also supported the old North African regimes,” news agencies quoted Putin as saying in a clear reference to European powers and the United States.
“But what is interesting, they also supported the North African revolutions as well, the ones that overthrew the old regimes.”
SO IS SCO REACHING THE proverbial BEST TIME?
BibiJon / Rd.
If at all true I really like the fact that the US military budgeters (public pirates) have finally realized that Iran alone can’t convince too many Americans to accept a sharp increase in the military spending, resembling the US’s economic good times of the 60’s and 80’s that was helped by sharp spending on military hardware which still, is mostly domestically manufactured and can reduce unemployment at the expense of diminishing the long term added value, capital spending, which basically means to spend the money on goods that will not generate any income after military hardware are manufactured. Unlike when making a new bridge or a plant, etc.
Now, the reason I like this new US posture toward China is not only that it may put some relief on Iran and poor Middle Eastern countries, but the real fun is our biggest enemy is a multi-tasking and multi ruled entity in our daily life, which is, not only they are our biggest enemy but they also are our biggest financiers as well as our biggest manufacturers of every day domestic goods, so if one looks at the cycle in this, one would see that we send our stuff to them to be manufactured by them, once the stuff is made we ask them to lend us the money so we can buy the stuff they just made for us, but not only money enough to buy the stuff but more so we can meet our military spending to credibly threaten them, who knows in future we may as well just ask them to make us the military stuff we need on credit so we can have enough military stuff to make our threats more credible.
I don’t know how long this cycle can last, but I can bit in the meantime a lot of chines are having a lots of fun laughing at us.
BiBiJon,
re your response on the prior thread to my post concerning Obama’s and Clinton’s commitment of military presence in Australia to curb China —
I thought your response indicated an Iran-centric siege mentality; the implication of your assessment was that it’s all about Iran. I understand why you would make that assumption — Just because you know you are paranoid does not mean no one is out to get you.
From the point of view of an American (who is an Iranophile but without serious skin in the game), (and who is also harshly anti-zionist, so that colors my outlook), I have a slightly different interpretation of Obama’s comments. I think they were for mostly domestic consumption, to fire up Americans to fear another “enemy,” China, and the statements were made just at this time to tamp down rising criticism of Israel.
I suspect Israel has pretty much gotten what it wanted out of the US and will be going its own way in the next ten years or so — Saban having planted his/Israel’s flag in Qatar could be good news for the US (bad news for Iran and the region) in that the power of the AIPAC lobby in the US will decrease. The US cow is going dry; AIPAC will skulk off just like the married lover who pledged “I’ll divorce her and marry you just as soon as . . .” gathers up his razor and toothbrush the moment his adulterously beloved plucks her first grey hair. Israel is moving on to more fertile fields; US has not yet figured out that she’s been left holding the empty toothpaste tube; she’s still bargaining to retain the attentions of her illicit lover, working out at the gym and botoxing her laugh lines in an attempt to regain her appeal. {heh, this is fun. how far can we spin out this C-grade romance??)
What impressed me about the arrogance of Obama’s contra-China (not quite anti-China) comment was the knowledge that there are a lot of very wealthy Chinese people in Obama’s Washington neighborhood. The genome industry functions side-by-side with the arms industry in Maryland and Virginia suburbs surrounding Washington (ie. Bethesda, MD is home to both Lockheed Martin and the Human Genome Project and spinoff corporations formed by Francis Collins & Craig Venter). A huge proportion of the scientists in genome labs are Chinese and Indian. Homes in entire neighborhoods in Montgomery County, Maryland, are owned by persons with Asian names. Chinese students are flocking to American universities in large numbers — at University of Virginia, five years ago, 12 Chinese students applied for admission; last year, 1400 applied. Chinese in the United States will soon be a force to be reckoned with. It is distressing that Obama, leader of a “nation of immigrants,” is pandering to fear rather than playing to strength and broad humanist values.
Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett:
The subject that you raise, in regards to oil & gas production in Iran, has been well-known and noted by others, including Dr. Cordesman.
At the present time, oil & gas supplies are in relative equilibrium with the demand.
So, US and EU feel that they can afford the cost of this policy.
And I suspect that there was always the hope that Iraq’s even larger oil reserves could be tapped to flood the global market and harm Iran (and Russia) and others.
Furthermore, the cost this policy is distributed all over the world; all oil & gas importers are thus subsidizing the US-EU policy costs versus Iran.
And they cannot do a damn thing about it.
There are winners in this, such as the Russian Federation and other oil-producers who do not have to be concerned with increased oil production from Iran.
I do not find the US policy towards Iran incoherent.
The US policy is the destruction of Iranian geopolitical autonomy.
The US leaders are clearly willing to pay an enormous price to achieve that.
And since US leaders have caused US and her allies and associates to pay a heavy price for regime-change in Iran, now they cannot back track.
For who or how can they redeem the policy losses inflicted on these states?
[The policy was always predicated on quick Iranain surrender, always, like the Iranian Nuclear Warhead, a year ot 2 away.]
That the goal of regime change in Iran is unachievable will not be accepted; after all did not the NAZI Germany fall? Or USSR?
In their refusal to act upon dissenting advice, US leaders resemble the leaders of General Motors Corporation; one the largest corporation on Earth and the model for many others.
Expect the confrontation to remain in place for a few more decades.
And I agree that time is on the Iranian side; the world will adjust to the US-EU/Iran antagonism and the world will find ways to exploit Iranain natural gas and oil and to pay for them.
Billions of people will not shiver in the cold or ride donkeys because US-EU leaders have issued edicts against Iran.
So the abject lesson on all of this may be, folks, don’t be surprised if China pulls a Russian, or Russo pulls a Chinese!! The stead fastness will continues, there will be no war in the horizon, just the usual corporate prostitute journalism on behalf of the Israeli. In that, there will be a price paid over time, however small it may be.
Hence lies the short sightedness of the US polity and their fast food mentality. In that they feel dropping a few pennies out of their pockets is not a big deal. They feel rich. So, for now, they can afford spending. However,
Water gathers drop by drop, till one day it becomes lakes and oceans. One presumes, Chinese are familiar with that as well.
THis of course would not be the first time that broad, long-term national interests have been sacrificed to short-term interests & expedient domestic politics and lobbying pressure. What is “good policy” is not necessarily what is “good politics”.
Caricature: attack Iran , good observation
http://www.tabnak.ir/fa/news/203994/کاریکاتور-حمله-به-ایران
missed this part!!!
“The greatest of harpooning feats is referred to as a moby dick
Kyle: Dude I boned a hottie last night.
Disgusted friend: MAN, she was a whale, but you’ve earned your harpooning license
Kyle:I wondered why she wanted the lights off”
BiBiJon says:
China would be doing herself a long-term favor by not budging from her position — call the bluff, once and for all.
——————–
There certainly is a great deal of interplay and inter-dependencies between US and China. The question maybe, at what point China would decide to be on the top position? Not soon enough it would seem. And this military and propaganda effort will be yet another anchor around the neck of the US.
Further, all this harpooning could also be viewed in terms of the Syrian front and the message to Iran, don’t spoil our game. It would seem, US is spending a great deal of capital to bring down Syria, in its long road to Iran, etc..
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Harpooning
Rd. says:
November 18, 2011 at 9:31 am
“Would this measure be an indication of the back channel pressure (on China) to support upcoming additional sanctions as well as the UN issue on the bogus assassination joke?”
Rd, without a doubt, US’ announced anti-China moves are to exert pressure on China. Objectives are not exclusively Iran. There are many other issues on which US would like to see China bend.
However, eventually China is likely to get tired of this mode of a relationship. I’m sure China would like to participate in world affairs like a grown-up: where there’s room for cooperation, cooperate, but also have her red-lines respected in reciprocation of her not challenging anyone else’s legitimate red lines.
To think every time US wants something beyond what’s attainable in negotiations, she will dispatch this battle ship, or that contingent of troops, or that waxing indignant about Tibet, or selling arms to Taiwan, etc. I think will eventually get the kind of response to put an end to this mode of operation.
China would be doing herself a long-term favor by not budging from her position — call the bluff, once and for all.
BiBiJon says:
Fio’s post yesterday about US’ military response (in Australia, the Philipines, Indonesia, etc.) to check China’s economically fueled rising influence, is the type of miscalculation of resources that will doom the already creaking structures of the West.
———————————-
Great point BiBiJon.. further, Would this measure be an indication of the back channel pressure (on China) to support upcoming additional sanctions as well as the UN issue on the bogus assassination joke?
did anybody else notice that the Al Jazeera moderator said, “Qatar is a very small country, 1.7 million people live here,” but Shadi Hamid, Haim Saban’s Doha doughboy, said, “There are only 250,000 Qataris compared to 300 million Americans . . .”
Presumably, Qatar’s gas field work, and most other forms of actual labor in Qatar, is performed by almost a million and a half migrant workers or otherwise unenfranchised persons, for the benefit of 15% of the “people who live [in Qatar]” and who reap such disproportionate financial reward from that labor that the 15% have “no constraints” on how much Qatar can spend to “spread democracy” in Libya, Egypt and Syria.
It’s the Amerikun way.
bear with me through this rather long passage from Andrew Cooper’s “The Oil Kings” —
It’s 1963; Ruhollah Khomeini has denounced the Shah, for which offense he was detained by SAVAK. His detention “triggered violent clashes in cities across Iran that briefly threatened the monarchy. The question of what to do with Khomeini vexed the palace.”
The head of SAVAK advised the shah to exile Khomeini, and the shah agreed to this means of getting “Khomeini out of the way” in order to “get back to the real work of modernizing Iran and fulfilling his imperial destiny.”
President Nixon’s White House advisors, including Alexander Haig, and Ambassador to Iran Douglas MacArthur II, concurred.
“Basically there is great stability [in Iran],” Ambassador MacArthur assured President Nixon, disregarding the recent attempt on his life. . . .Responding to a question about student unrest in Iran, he replied that “about ten percent are activists.” Nixon [responded], “That’s less than we have.”
“They want a greater voice in the thing,” MacArthur conceded. “But the Shah is wise enough to know that when you take a people that are from feudalism, and you drag them out of the womb of feudalism like a midwife driving a child out of the mother’s womb, you let loose great elemental forces. And this is what he’s done. Now he runs a fairly tight shop, but to channel these energies and forces.”
“He always tries to keep one foot ahead of them, huh?” Nixon noted with admiration.
“He does. He said to me the other day before the oil talks, he said –he was talking about how they need more revenue — he said, ‘Mr. Ambassador,” he said, ‘I need more hospitals. I need more health services in my villages. I need more workers’ housing. I need more schools for my people.’ He said, ‘I must do these things.’ ”
“Hmm.” The president was clearly impressed.
“He’s got a profound, he’s developed a profound social conscience.”
“I just wish there were a few more leaders around the world with his foresight,” Nixon mused. “And his ability to run, let’s face it, a virtual dictatorship in a benign way. Because, look, when you talk about having a democracy of our type in that part of the world, good God, it wouldn’t work. Would it? Democracy wasn’t working in Africa where the people “are just out of the trees.” At least Iran had “some degree of civilization in its history.” . . .”And it’s got to be that way. They aren’t ready. You know this.” “
Presumably, Qatar’s 15% will not be encumbered by any vestigial memory of “some degree of civilization” in the other 85% of “people who live in Qatar,” since any uppity migrant workers can be returned to the “trees” from which they came, and a new batch of disenfranchised workers imported to carry on producing wealth for their masters.
And don’t count on consultants from the US State Department or from Haim Saban’s Brookings Institute Doha to urge democratic reforms on Qatar — not while the money is flowing.
Ric says: November 18, 2011 at 6:38 am
Seems like Russia have began to take a hostile stance to Iran too.
Radars in the ME are of no use whatsoever! Political mileage, yes.
With American AWACS in the skies, not a flee can fly without it being known/found out.
Please get over the radar business, in Turkey, Russia, Poland, etc…
Heck of a job, Amano.
===================
“China has noted that, as indicated in the Director-General’s report, the Agency is able to continue to verify the non-diversion of Iran’s declared nuclear material and yet to confirm that all nuclear material in Iran is in peaceful activities.”
“China hopes the Agency’s secretariat could uphold a fair and objective position in this process, Cheng Jingye said.”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2011-11/18/c_131256295.htm
NAM, the Non-Aligned Movement which represents 118 countries “notes with concern the possible implications of the continued departure from standard verification language in the summary of the report of the Director General,” said the statement which was read during the IAEA Board of Governors meeting on behalf of over 100 NAM member states, including India”
,http://www.iranaffairs.com/iran_affairs/2011/11/most-countries-reject-iran-iaea-report.html
Lavrov said that the latest report of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) on Iran does not contain anything new. He also said the agency should name the source of its information, which analysts say suggests Iran is attempting to build nuclear weapons.
From ,http://en.rian.ru/russia/20111114/168685002.html
Bibi-john : I hope you are right. Although portraying Iran as the boogeyman is not good in the long run.
Ric says:
November 18, 2011 at 6:38 am
Radars are a funny thing. Funnier still is the universal excuse for them: Iran.
We had the Polish, Czech, and Turkish radar installations to counter the ‘Iranian’ missile threat, not Russian ICBMs. So, now we have the Russian upgrade of Azeri radar installation to counter the ‘Iranian’ missile threat, not NATO’s missiles.
Good. Now that we are clear …
Clint says:
November 17, 2011 at 7:23 pm
The ECONOMIST has an interesting take on the obsession with Iran:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/11/nuclear-iran?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/theatrocityaddictedimagination
“It seems to me that the American and Israeli obsession with Iran’s nuclear weapons programme proceeds from a misguided messianic-apocalyptic streak in both countries’ political cultures. There’s a temptation to imagine the world of foreign policy as a broad extension of a Robert Ludlum novel: a desperate time-constrained race to stop evil madmen from committing atrocities. This vision is morally clarifying and inspiring. But it has little to do with reality, and it distracts the public from the actual challenges of foreign policy, which are usually messy and often involve actual sacrifices in order to achieve publicly valuable goals. Of course, in both America and Israel, distracting the public from real international challenges that might necessitate sacrifices to achieve public goals is part of the point.”
=============
Also, today an unusually ‘informed’ comment in ,http://www.juancole.com/2011/11/serri-irans-un-inspectors-are-repeating-the-iraq-mistakes.html
“Just as UNMOVIC had done in Iraq, Heinonen accuses Iran of having “Undisclosed Production” facilities, a charge that cannot be disproved. His only evidence is that “Concealment and denial have been hallmarks of Iran’s nuclear activities”. If Amano and Heinonen want to take the same road that once Hans Blix took, then we already know what the end result will be: No matter what Iran does there will be no end to inspections, questions and alleged “gaps in knowledge.” Iran needs to adapt accordingly.”
======================
I find it unfathomable that so many have fallen for this ‘Chicken Little’ mentality of so few. There are very dark times ahead for the perpetrators of this institutionalized hateful racism. And, I don’t mean in their afterlives, Amano and Blix will have the pleasure of cavorting with their millions of victims, for eternity. I mean here and now, the very Western civilization in whose ‘interests’ they have enabled the most wonton acts of inhumanity will crumble before their very eyes — they have enabled murder for nothing.
Fio’s post yesterday about US’ military response (in Australia, the Philipines, Indonesia, etc.) to check China’s economically fueled rising influence, is the type of miscalculation of resources that will doom the already creaking structures of the West. If you’re spending money on military adventures, then you’re short-changing investments on education and infrastructure. But, if you’re falling behind relative to China, it is because education and infrastructure improvidently were not given priority.
As for Iran, time is on her side. No need to do anything rash.
Seems like Russia have began to take a hostile stance to Iran too.
“Russia to improve Azerbaijan radar site to monitor Iran missiles”
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1676031.php/Russia-to-improve-Azerbaijan-radar-site-to-monitor-Iran-missiles
Why would Russia have to spy on Iran? Since when have Iran threatened Russia or their interests?
Fio,
Shadi Hamid is one of these coconuts (brown on the outside, white in the inside) that is wheeled in by AlJ to provide commentary and analaysis on the ME – He seems to me, to be one of those forcefully arguing for regime change in Syria, and will badger its viewers with facts and figures on how brutally civilians are been killed by Syrian military and Alawite thugs.
As that plan is not going to plan, partly due to Iran’s support of Syria, he has decided to turn that venom against Iran – which is something easy to do in the climate we live in. In that way, he pleases the Saudis and the Yankees, who may take notice of what he is saying – similar to a baby crying, wwhen he/she is ignored, will then throw a tantrum, then continue to pretend to be vomitting until it gets attention.
Al Jazeera has lost any credibility it once had.
Fio,
I think you have seen the movie Gasland, which is an American documentary film written and directed in 2010 by Josh Fox. The film focuses on communities in the United States impacted by natural gas drilling and, specifically, a stimulation method known as hydraulic fracturing. A very grim view of what it takes to extract gas from the rock. Here is a YouTube trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtpSgqUZ3oA
a crawler on the video said,
“natural gas said to be the cleanest burning fossil fuel.”
and Flynt mentioned recently developed shale gas fields in the US.
the ground Flynt was standing on at Penn State is on or near the Marcellus Shale field. While it may be true that “natural gas is the cleanest burning fossil fuel,” extracting natural gas from shale by hydraulic fracturing — frakking — involves chemical and geological processes whose long-term impacts are not clearly understood. There is great concern that groundwater near frakked fields could contaminate flow into watersheds serving millions of people.
Americans who are concerned about environmental impacts of developing the Marcellus shale, as well as other shale formations in Arkansas and Texas, should remind themselves that Arabs and Iranians have for many decades coped with environmental challenges related to oil production, from which the West has benefited and achieved prosperity. A little gratitude is in order.
why does Shadi Hamid of Brookings Doha Center have such a negative view of Iran?
http://www.brookings.edu/doha/about.aspx
“The center was formally inaugurated by H.E. Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr Al-Thani, prime minister and minister of foreign affairs of the State of Qatar, on February 17, 2008. Others present included Carlos Pascual, former vice president and director of the Brookings Foreign Policy Program, Martin Indyk, founding director of the Saban Center at Brookings and current vice president and director of the Brookings Foreign Policy program, and Hady Amr, founding director of the Brookings Doha Center. ”
Haim Saban, that “one issue guy whose one issue is Israel,” funded the Saban Center at Brookings shortly after completing one of the largest corporate sales in history, netting over a billion dollars, and taking advantage of offshore tax havens to do so. :http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/TAXHAVENABUSESREPORT107.pdf To drive the point home: Haim Saban exerts more influence over US foreign policy and US support for Israel than, arguably, any other group or even the entire United States electorate. He does so on the strength of vast wealth earned by disseminating cartoons to American and other children. He does not pay taxes to the US.
The ECONOMIST has an interesting take on the obsession with Iran:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/11/nuclear-iran?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/theatrocityaddictedimagination
“It seems to me that the American and Israeli obsession with Iran’s nuclear weapons programme proceeds from a misguided messianic-apocalyptic streak in both countries’ political cultures. There’s a temptation to imagine the world of foreign policy as a broad extension of a Robert Ludlum novel: a desperate time-constrained race to stop evil madmen from committing atrocities. This vision is morally clarifying and inspiring. But it has little to do with reality, and it distracts the public from the actual challenges of foreign policy, which are usually messy and often involve actual sacrifices in order to achieve publicly valuable goals. Of course, in both America and Israel, distracting the public from real international challenges that might necessitate sacrifices to achieve public goals is part of the point.”
Fiorangela,
Yes, two idiot Republican senators you identify. Both of whom are enthusiastic stooges of the Israeli gov’t.
Idiotic US policy can be explained in part with one word: ISRAEL. Israel wants to hurt Iran even if doing so injures the people of the US, Europe, and around the world. Do fanatical “supporters” of Israel in US Congress and elsewhere give a d*amn? Of course not!
Andrew Scott Cooper has written a book on US-Iran-Saudi oil policy over the past 35 years that is, in my view, as important as Trita Parsi’s book on the Israel-US-Iran triangle, except that Cooper fails to take account of the influence of Israel as he analyzes US-Iran-Saudi oil policy. Cooper discusses his book, “The Oil Kings: How the US, Iran, and Saudi Arabia Changed the Balance of Power in the Middle East,” here:
The pivot point for Cooper’s analysis is the Gerald Ford administration’s attempt to persuade Reza Pahlavi, in 1976, to renounce its proposal to support OPEC in seeking a 15% increase in the price of oil. Focusing on a private discussion among Ford and his chief economic advisor, Alan Greenspan and Iranian ambassador Ardeshir Zahedi (Brent Scowcroft took notes), Cooper details how the Ford team attempted to impress upon the shah’s representative how harmful such an increase would be, in a world that had not yet recovered from the oil shock of 1973. Indeed, the 1973 oil shock had set in train the near-collapse of governments in Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Great Britain, and had caused social unrest in those countries and others.
That is to say, the oil shock of 1973 caused precisely the kind of governmental economic collapse and attendant social unrest that the US Congress has been attempting to generate in Iran since at least 1995, and which is approaching a crescendo today, Nov. 17, 2011.
A few minutes ago I received an email message from NIAC, stating that
QUOTE
“Moments ago, the Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) and Senator Mark Kirk (R-IL) offered an amendment that would impose draconian sanctions against Iran’s Central Bank, effectively making it illegal for any country or company to do any business with Iran. Senator Kirk has stated that his goal is to “collapse the Iranian economy,” turning Iran into Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
Kirk says that his plan is to cause so much suffering among ordinary Iranians that they will be forced to rise up against the regime. And if that doesn’t work, then we will go to war with Iran.”
END QUOTE
Kirk’s ghoulish scheme is not new. On Sept. 26, 2007, US Congressman Ed Royce, R-California, informed a C Span audience that the goal of Iran Sanctions act HR 1400 was to cut off financing to Iran’s oil and gas sector so that Iran would run short of fuel, increasing the likelihood of “gas riots” that, according to Royce, were already taking place in Iran. :http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/USPolicyTowardIran25
On its “take action” page, NIAC quoted “One of the bill’s top supporters, Rep. Brad Sherman (D-CA)” who said:
QUOTE
“Critics [of the sanctions] argued that these measures will hurt the Iranian people. Quite frankly, we need to do just that.”
:https://secure3.convio.net/niac/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=189&autologin=true&JServSessionIdr004=3snk8vxhc6.app333b
Cooper’s analysis failed to acknowledge the cause of the 1973 oil shocks that caused so much financial and social suffering in numerous states throughout the world. That scenario was brought about when OPEC members (EXCEPT Iran) retaliated after
QUOTE
“Golda Meir, the fourth prime minister of Israel, reportedly prepared to launch 13 nuclear bombs on Syria and Egypt in 1973 and was stopped short of committing this genocidal act when Henry Kissinger gave Israel the most massive weapons airlift in history at the time to reverse the course of the 1973 war (as Time Magazine reported the story).” {Joseph Massad in Al Jazeera, 10 Nov 2011, :http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011111075527560230.html }
END QUOTE
As Mr. Massad chronicled in the Al Jazeera article, Israel obtained its nuclear weapons through illegal means, including the theft of nuclear material from the NUMEC plant in Apollo, PA, whose then-president today lives in a toney condominium not far from the scene of that crime. He is a member of the board of a local Hillel and enjoys the protection of former Democratic and then Republican Senator Arlen Specter.
Cooper fails to acknowledge that millions of people suffered and died, and geopolitical relationships were estranged for generations, because Jewish agents in the United States and Israel obtained and deployed as blackmail, nuclear weapons.
To perpetuate the protection of those criminals and their criminal acts, Brad Sherman thinks that Iranians should suffer.
What would happen if someone were to say, Israelis and American Israelists are acting illegally and causing this conflict. They should suffer.